"Works Salvation"

[Studyman]

Many people fail to understand the difference between the OT law and the NT law.

You are not the first man to be convinced Jesus and HIS father are not One. Or to try and place a wedge between them by promoting the falsehood that Jesus came to promote His Own will, and not the Will of His Father.

John 10: 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: "that ye may know", and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

What were the "works of the Father" that Jesus walked in?

What I have already posted earlier still stands:
1) Christian's delegated authority is Christ and are to listen to Christ not Moses and the Prophets, Mt 17

The Bible says the Spirit of Christ was on the Prophets.

Here is what the Jesus "of the Bible" who you claim to delegate authority to, tells you.

Matt. 19: 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which?

So here it is for you, Jesus own Words telling you what Commandments men are to keep.

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus didn't mention the first and greatest Commandment, but surely it was implied. All of these Laws are OT Laws, some from Ex. 20, and some from Lev. 19. He didn't mention Adultery here either but it too is certainly implied. When the man asked Him "Which Commandments" the Jesus of the Bible answered, "God's OT Laws".

It's right in your own Bible, all a man needs is belief.

Consider these Words of the Jesus "of the Bible" as well.


Matt. 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, "that observe and do"; but do not ye after their works: for they "say", and do not.

And one more.

Luke 16: 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou (Only True God) hast sent.


So then, your preaching that Jesus didn't promote God's Commandments HE gave through Moses, though perhaps popular in the particular religious sect you have adopted, is simply untrue, according to this same Jesus' Words.

Does it matter? Only if Biblical Truth matters.

2) going back to the OT law to find justification is sin, Rom 7

The OT Law which defines sin, was never about "Justification". Paul also tries to tell you this, but as Jesus told us, you will not be persuaded.

Rom. 7: 12 Wherefore the (OT) law is holy, and the (OT) commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. (That means NO!) But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the (OT) law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

22 For I delight in the law of God (OT Law) after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Deception, Death) which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God (OT GOD that Jesus said to know and obey) through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God (OT LAW) but with the flesh the law of sin.

The reason why I replied to your religious post in the first place, is because it preaches against what God, His Son, and His apostles actually teach.

Perhaps you already know this, perhaps you don't. Nevertheless, if I love you with God's Love, I should at least point some of these things out.

3) Jesus came to earth to replace the OT law with His NT (Eph 2; Col 2)

No it doesn't. There may be "many" who come in Christ's Name, who teach these things, but the bible doesn't.

Eph. 2: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which "God" hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Just like Jesus and All examples of faith in the entire Bible did.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

It is religious men, who call Jesus Lord, Lord, but do not obey His instruction, that preaches Jesus came to replace God's Laws. I am hoping you might consider what the Jesus of the Bible actually says.

for there had to be a change in law for Christ Himself to be a Priest, Heb 7.

There had to be a "Change in the Priesthood" Law. At least that is what Heb. 7 teaches. It even tells you what Law changed. Here, see for yourself.

Heb. 7: 11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the "priesthood" being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. 13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Jesus wasn't from the Tribe of Levi. The Priesthood Law required that only a Levite could be a Priest of God. For Jesus to fulfill His Prophesied Role as High Priest, the Priesthood Law requiring a Priest to be from the Tribe of Levite was "Changed".

It's in your own Bible, you can read it for yourself.

Hence Christ did not come to earth to convert men to Judaism but prepare the Jews for the change in law that was to take place.

Again, this is your adopted religion. But here is what the Jesus "of the Bible" actually says.

John 4: 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

The image of God created in the likeness of some random long haired men's hair shampoo model might promote what you are advocating here. But the Jesus "of the bible" tells you right here that "Salvation is of the Jews".

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the "true worshippers" shall worship "the Father" in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Could this be why the Jesus of the Bible tells His People that Eternal Life is to Know this Same God, of the OT?

Christ did not come to make NT Christianity a patch to be put on the old garment of Judaism (Mt 9) but replace that old garment altogether.
Men do not put new wine in old wineskins likewise Christ was not going to 'pour' His new teachings into the old wineskin of Judaism for the old and new cannot be mixed.
4)

I sometimes feel sorry for men who have fallen for the deceptions promoted by this world's religions.

But then, when they refuse to even answer simple questions, or even acknowledge scriptures, it becomes clear that they simply don't Love God. But I didn't either, "in times past", so I will post Christ's Truth anyway, knowing that maybe someone will see what is actually written and "take Heed" they too are not deceived.

The Pharisees rejected the OT Laws. They were rebellious "children of the devil". They were given the OT Laws but did not walk in them. They promoted a religion, much like the one being promoted here, that was believed on by "many", but was not from God or His Son, the Holy One of Israel. The "NEW WINE" for the Pharisees, was God's Commandments that they (the old man) had rejected. You have been convinced of the lie that the Pharisees were following God's Laws. But if you would listen to the Jesus "of the Bible", EVERY TIME HE spoke of the Pharisees, He told you they were disobedient to God's Laws. That they "said" they "delegated authority" to Moses but didn't believe Moses.

Here is what the Inspired Word of God teaches that the NEW MAN we are to put on, is supposed to be.

Eph. 4: 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, (Not this world's religious businesses) as the truth "is in Jesus:"

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God (OT God) is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The NEW man is the opposite of the old man "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

Now, once purchased, we become suitable to receive God's Goodness that "True Worshippers" are to seek. As Paul teaches.

Rom. 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Most men don't really believe this though.

 

[Seabass]

You are not the first man to be convinced Jesus and HIS father are not One. Or to try and place a wedge between them by promoting the falsehood that Jesus came to promote His Own will, and not the Will of His Father.

I've NEVER argued this.

 

[Studyman]

I've NEVER argued this.

"Jesus came to earth to replace the OT law with His NT"

These are your words, Yes?

So you are pitting God's "instruction in Righteousness" against His Son's "Instruction in Righteousness," implying that they are not the same, that the Father and the Son are not ONE.

I simply pointed out that you are not the first to be convinced of this philosophy. Are you now denying that you preach God's righteousness and His Son's Righteousness are two separate things??

 

[Doug Brents]

"Jesus came to earth to replace the OT law with His NT"

These are your words, Yes?

So you are pitting God's "instruction in Righteousness" against His Son's "Instruction in Righteousness," implying that they are not the same, that the Father and the Son are not ONE.

That is not the case. The OT was designed by God to become obsolete (Jer 31:31-34). The OT was planned by God to end, and the NT to be instituted through Christ Jesus. This is not pitting God against God, or the Father against Jesus, but the two working together to lead mankind from the schoolmaster to Faith (Gal 3:23-4:7).

 

[Studyman]

That is not the case. The OT was designed by God to become obsolete (Jer 31:31-34).

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There is nothing here about making God's Law obsolete. There isn't even an implication of such a thing.

There are two things here that are addressed.

#1. How God's Law, that HE before ordained that we should walk in them, are administered.

#2. How Transgressions of God's Laws are forgiven.

The deceiver would have us believe that writing God's "Holy, Just and Good Laws on the hearts of those True worshippers, means God abolished His Laws.

Clearly God, through Jeremiah wasn't teaching this.

The OT was planned by God to end, and the NT to be instituted through Christ Jesus.

According to Paul, who was Inspired by the Spirit of Christ, the OT was written for us. And when I die, it is written to those who would live after me. The deceiver would have us believe these examples "Ended" with the murder of Jesus. But anyone who can read, can hear Paul expose this insidious falsehood who has snared "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, (There was only the Law and Prophets available to Timothy in his youth. The deceiver would have us ignore this undeniable biblical Truth) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (The Just shall live by Faith, Hab. 2:4) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, (As the Jesus of the Bible instructed) throughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not pitting God against God, or the Father against Jesus, but the two working together to lead mankind from the schoolmaster to Faith (Gal 3:23-4:7).

Gal. 3: 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

What "LAW" is Paul speaking to? The deceiver would have us believe that in the Law and Prophets, when a man transgressed God's commandments, as all men do, Moses required this man to "Keep God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments" and his sin was forgiven.

This is a foolish lie though. All one has to do is ask themselves. "In the Law and Prophets, when a common man sinned, what "LAW" did God through Moses require before forgiveness was granted, AKA "Justification"?

When a man honestly answers this question, he will find God, through Moses, required a sacrifice, and blood. It was this "ADDED" Priesthood Law that was to lead the Jews to the Lamb of God, for the remission of their sins. Not "Keep the Sabbath Holy", or "Thou shall not kill".

The deceiver would have us believe that God through Moses, all the Prophets, Jesus, Paul and the Apostles all lied to us, but this world's religions, "who come in Christ's Name" are the truth tellers.

And men are free to adopt this religion, as it is certainly seductive, and an easy one to follow.

But God never Prophesied the abolition of His instruction in righteousness, and Paul teaches God's Laws were written "for our sakes no doubt", for examples for us, and for "our" admonition, "upon whom the ends of the world are come". And the Holy spirit is given to those who Obey God, as Peter teaches. And the "doers of the law" shall be justified, as Paul and God's Word and Jesus also teach.

So you do pit the Jesus of the bible, against the God of the Bible. The foundation of your religious philosophy is based on the teaching that Jesus came to "Abolish" God's Commandments. Even after the Jesus "of the Bible" tells you not to even "think" such a thing.

You are free to adopt any religious philosophy you want. I am just pointing out what the Scriptures actually say.

 

[Doug Brents]

Jer. 31: 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

There is nothing here about making God's Law obsolete. There isn't even an implication of such a thing.

There are two things here that are addressed.

#1. How God's Law, that HE before ordained that we should walk in them, are administered.

#2. How Transgressions of God's Laws are forgiven.

The deceiver would have us believe that writing God's "Holy, Just and Good Laws on the hearts of those True worshippers, means God abolished His Laws.

Clearly God, through Jeremiah wasn't teaching this.

Was murder against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is murder against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was incest against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is incest against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was dishonesty against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is dishonesty against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was theft against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is theft against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
So far there is no difference between the OT Law and the NT Law.
Was the sabbath kept and honored between Creation and Sinai? NO.
Was the sabbath to be kept and honored from Sinai to Christ? Yes.
Is the the sabbath to be kept and honored from Christ to today? No. - so this is a difference.
Was there "clean" and "unclean" foods between Creation and Sinai? NO.
Was there "clean" and "unclean" foods from Sinai to Christ? Yes.
Is there "clean" and "unclean" foods from Christ to today? No. - so this is a difference.

According to Paul, who was Inspired by the Spirit of Christ, the OT was written for us. And when I die, it is written to those who would live after me. The deceiver would have us believe these examples "Ended" with the murder of Jesus. But anyone who can read, can hear Paul expose this insidious falsehood who has snared "many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord.

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, (There was only the Law and Prophets available to Timothy in his youth. The deceiver would have us ignore this undeniable biblical Truth) which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (The Just shall live by Faith, Hab. 2:4) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, (As the Jesus of the Bible instructed) throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yes, the OT was written for us to learn from, but not for us today to live by. Not even all commands in the OT were to be continually exercised during the OT. The command to go into a city and kill every man, woman, child, and animal was only for a specific time, and only for specific cities. This is not the way later leaders waged war, nor is it the way we are to wage war today. Some commands have limited scope and application. When we read the NT, almost every thing that was sin in the OT is still sin. Almost everything that is righteous in the OT is still righteous.

Gal. 3: 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

What "LAW" is Paul speaking to? The deceiver would have us believe that in the Law and Prophets, when a man transgressed God's commandments, as all men do, Moses required this man to "Keep God's Commandments, Statutes and Judgments" and his sin was forgiven.

This is a foolish lie though. All one has to do is ask themselves. "In the Law and Prophets, when a common man sinned, what "LAW" did God through Moses require before forgiveness was granted, AKA "Justification"?

When a man honestly answers this question, he will find God, through Moses, required a sacrifice, and blood. It was this "ADDED" Priesthood Law that was to lead the Jews to the Lamb of God, for the remission of their sins. Not "Keep the Sabbath Holy", or "Thou shall not kill".

Was the Levitical priesthood the only thing that was "added" at Sinai? No. The whole of the Law was codified at that time: What was right and wrong was written down. What the holidays and feasts they were required to keep were written down. What sacrifices were required as a continual (sin or no sin) offering were written down. How the Tabernacle (and eventually the Temple) were to be built were written down. What foods could be eaten and what foods could not be eaten were written down. How to prepare and how not to prepare those foods was written down. All of these things were eliminated by Christ as Gal 4:21-31 says. Notice that Paul in Gal 4:21 does not say "you who want to be under the priesthood". No, he says, "you who want to be under Law". It is not just the priesthood that was canceled, but the whole of the Old Covenant.

The deceiver would have us believe that God through Moses, all the Prophets, Jesus, Paul and the Apostles all lied to us, but this world's religions, "who come in Christ's Name" are the truth tellers.

That is not what I am saying at all. Please, listen to the Word of God. Notice Paul's statement in Gal 5:2-3, if you have yourself circumcised to obey the Old Law, then you are willingly placing yourself back under the Law and are required to keep the whole of the Law, and so Christ is of no value to you for salvation. There is no lie in Moses, or the Prophets, or Jesus, or Paul and the other Apostles; All of Scripture leads smoothly from the Old Covenant (Adam, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, Judges, and Kings) to the New Covenant in Christ.

And men are free to adopt this religion, as it is certainly seductive, and an easy one to follow.

But God never Prophesied the abolition of His instruction in righteousness, and Paul teaches God's Laws were written "for our sakes no doubt", for examples for us, and for "our" admonition, "upon whom the ends of the world are come". And the Holy spirit is given to those who Obey God, as Peter teaches. And the "doers of the law" shall be justified, as Paul and God's Word and Jesus also teach.

So you do pit the Jesus of the bible, against the God of the Bible. The foundation of your religious philosophy is based on the teaching that Jesus came to "Abolish" God's Commandments. Even after the Jesus "of the Bible" tells you not to even "think" such a thing.

You are free to adopt any religious philosophy you want. I am just pointing out what the Scriptures actually say.

Jesus did say that He came not to abolish the Law. That is true. But if you stop there, you will miss the importance of what He said He came to do.

"Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!"
Jesus came to fulfill the Law, and the Law will not pass away UNTIL He fulfills it all. If He did not fulfill it all before He died, then His purpose for coming to Earth was not fulfilled. Yet He DID fulfill EVERY task for which He came. All was accomplished at His death, and so the Law and the Prophets was fulfilled, and (as Heb 8:13 says) is now obsolete.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"Works salvation" is a term that gets thown around a lot on forums as this one.

BOY HOWDY!!!! that's a fact Jack!! Roman Catholics teach that "Salvation" (which they have no assurance of) is the product of faith in Jesus, and their own good works - which was what LUTHER tried to correct them about - unsuccessfully.

1) What is "works salvation"? How does one define "works salvation" according to the Bible?

One doesn't.

2) What is an example from the Bible of "works salvation"?

There are none.

3) Was Noah's work in building the ark "to the saving of his house" (Heb 11:7) a "works salvation"?

No it was the "Fruit" OF HIS FAITH in God's word: "Build an ark"

Is the above link correct in saying that "works salvation" is man trying to control his own eternal destiny?

That's what Man wants - i.e. "Salvation" to "Be his wages" for his Good works (which are all garbage before God), instead on being EXCLUSIVELY BY FAITH in the Sin Offering of Jesus on the Cross, which Cleanses us from our SIN. That doesn't mean that man can't do works which are beneficial in the absolute. It only means that they MEAN NOTHING in terms of a person's salvation, which is ALL CHRIST plus nothing.

Is it true that man has no control, no role at all in his own eternal destiny?

Not where Salvation is concerned. the only thing man CAN DO is, when he's CONVICTED OF HIS SIN by the Holy SPirit, he can Surrender, and repent crying out to God to save him.

Did Noah have no control, no role at all in the saving of his house?

Saving his house PHYSICALLY, sure. Saving his house SPIRITUALLY - no.

 

[Doug Brents]

Not where Salvation is concerned. the only thing man CAN DO is, when he's CONVICTED OF HIS SIN by the Holy SPirit, he can Surrender, and repent crying out to God to save him.

That is not the only thing that man must do to be saved, to RECEIVE God's salvation that He so generously gives.
Certainly we must ask God to save us, but just asking God to save you is totally meaningless. As Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." It is not the one who calls Him Lord, but the one who shows that He is Lord through his actions that will receive Salvation.
And, as you said, we must also repent of our sins; turn from our life of sin and toward living for Christ. And if this is not a daily, minute by minute, continual turning toward God, then it is meaningless. There must be a lifelong clinging, an abiding, in Christ or our belief was in vain, and we will not receive the reward when this life is over.
But we must also have our sins washed away in baptism, because baptism (in water) is the point at which Scripture says our sins are removed and we actually become united with Jesus' death and resurrection (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Acts 22:16).

Saving his house PHYSICALLY, sure. Saving his house SPIRITUALLY - no.

As is explained above, these statements are not entirely correct. If a man on a roof in a flooding valley grabs the rope hanging from a helicopter, he most certainly did not save himself, but he certainly had a part in saving himself. Similarly, we must also take hold of the things that God says lead to our receiving His salvation, or we will not receive it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That is not the only thing that man must do to be saved, to RECEIVE God's salvation that He so generously gives.
Certainly we must ask God to save us, but just asking God to save you is totally meaningless.

What part of "when he's convicted of his SIN" (God's part, and the source of FAITH) didn't you get???

But we must also have our sins washed away in baptism, because baptism (in water) is the point at which Scripture says our sins are removed and we actually become united with Jesus' death and resurrection (1 Pet 3:21, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, Acts 22:16).

Baptism in water by immersion (the meaning of baptize) is what a person does AFTER they'vs been Born again BY FAITH, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus. "Baptism" is a testimonial activity done by obedience only. It's an "Ordinance, not a "Sacrament" (there are no "Sacraments").

 

[Studyman]

Was murder against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is murder against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was incest against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is incest against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was dishonesty against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is dishonesty against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
Was theft against God's Law in the OT? Yes.
Is theft against God's Law in the NT? Yes.
So far there is no difference between the OT Law and the NT Law.

You are distracting away from your own preaching, and the Scriptures I posted, in order to justify yourself. You said; "The OT was designed by God to become obsolete (Jer 31:31-34)."

This is simply a falsehood. Now you are trying to justify this falsehood, partly by ignoring the very Scripture you twist to support the foundation of your teaching. How can two people have an honest discussion regarding the Scriptures, if you continue to distract and deflect from the issue at hand. There is nothing in the verse you posted, which implies that God created His Laws, Statutes, and Judgments that Jesus walked in, only to abolish them after Jesus was killed. Your refusal to address your own words, do not make a falsehood true.

Was the sabbath kept and honored between Creation and Sinai? NO.

You have absolutely no proof for this statement. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. Man was created first, then God Sanctified and set apart the 7th day. Why??? Jesus, that is, the Jesus "of the bible" told you it was made for man. The teaching that God hid this creation from men, the very men Jesus said the Sabbath was made for, is foolishness. And the only reason men would promote such a thing, is to justify the popular ancient religious tradition of rejecting God's Sabbath. Something religious men have done for a very long time. Neither Jesus, nor His Disciples, nor the Body of Christ in the NT rejected the Commandments of God.

Did God expect men to Love Him with all their heart and soul between Creation and Sinai? Of course, you will not answer. And yet this Law too, was not mentioned until the Exodus.

Was the sabbath to be kept and honored from Sinai to Christ? Yes.

There is no distinction made between any of the 10 Commandments. You create a distinction to preserve your religious tradition. This world's religions make a distinction to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. But God, Jesus, Paul, no one in the Scriptures, EVER, promoted or even implied that some of God's commandments in the 10, was worthy of man's respect, and some were not worthy of man's respect.

This is simply undeniable Biblical Fact. This is why you can only use your own words to promote this part of your adopted religious philosophy, because there isn't any Scriptures to support your belief that mere men can Judge God, and His Commandments, as unworthy of their honor and respect, and be accepted. The Jesus "of the bible" never behaved in this manner for even one second.

Again, this is undeniable Biblical Fact. Will you be persuaded? Jesus said you would not.

Is the the sabbath to be kept and honored from Christ to today? No. - so this is a difference.

Again, you have nothing but worldly religious tradition of men to support this religious philosophy. You have Judged God's Word, some as unworthy of your respect and honor. I believe God knows what HE is talking about. And that when Jesus said a commandment was made for men, I should listen to Him, not imply in my religion that HE only spoke the truth sometimes. And other times we should pattern our life after the words of the Pope, or Kenneth Copeland.

Was there "clean" and "unclean" foods between Creation and Sinai? NO.

Gen. 7: 1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

So once again, what you promote, and what the Holy scriptures actually teach, are completely opposite. Will you address this Biblical Truth? Will you be corrected? Or will you simply continue justifying your own adopted religious philosophy.

Gen. 8: 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Will you really try and justify the religious philosophy that Abraham didn't know about the Clean and Unclean animals preserved on the Ark by God through Noah?

Of course, you must. Because to admit the undeniable truth of what I just posted, would expose a deception you are promoting. And since there is no doubt your preaching regarding clean and unclean animals is proven false, then so could your preaching regarding God's sabbaths, and adultery, and killing, and stealing, and hating brothers from the heart, or looking on the nakedness of our fathers, like Ham did.

Then you too, like all men, would have to make the same choice Abraham and all men must make. Do we repent and turn to God? Or do we continue in our religious tradition which causes men who follow them to Transgress God's Commandments.

I know these things, because I too, lived in the religions of this world, just like you. And I too, started to SEE what was actually written, VS what this world's Preachers were promoting, just as you are being shown here.

My hope is that you might turn away from this world's religions, and turn towards the Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness, that the Jesus of the bible said to "Seek First".

There is no sense to continue if a man can't accept these simply undeniable Biblical Truths.

 

[Doug Brents]

What part of "when he's convicted of his SIN" (God's part, and the source of FAITH) didn't you get???

I get every part of that phrase. Yes, man is convicted of Sin by the Holy Spirit, but that does not save him. You can know absolutely that you are a sinner; you can hear the Spirit's call and know that you are condemned to Hell, but if you do nothing about it, you will not be saved.

Baptism in water by immersion (the meaning of baptize) is what a person does AFTER they'vs been Born again

That is not what Scripture says. Acts 2:38 says that forgiveness of sin is the result of being baptized. Acts 22:16 says that sins are washed away during baptism. Mark 16:16 says that those who believe AND are baptized will be saved. 1 Pet 3:21 says that baptism (in water, like the Flood) saves us now. Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both say that during baptism we are united with Jesus' death and resurrection, our sins are removed (cut (circumcised) from us), and we receive salvation.

BY FAITH, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus. "Baptism" is a testimonial activity done by obedience only.

Faith requires, demands, and is lifeless, useless, and meaningless without, action (James 2:26). And as Eph 2:8-9 says, faith is the conduit through which salvation is received, which means that it must be present, alive, and active BEFORE salvation is received.

It's an "Ordinance, not a "Sacrament" (there are no "Sacraments").

That is absolutely correct. I am glad we agree on at least this.

 

[Doug Brents]

You are distracting away from your own preaching, and the Scriptures I posted, in order to justify yourself. You said; "The OT was designed by God to become obsolete (Jer 31:31-34)."

This is simply a falsehood. Now you are trying to justify this falsehood, partly by ignoring the very Scripture you twist to support the foundation of your teaching. How can two people have an honest discussion regarding the Scriptures, if you continue to distract and deflect from the issue at hand. There is nothing in the verse you posted, which implies that God created His Laws, Statutes, and Judgments that Jesus walked in, only to abolish them after Jesus was killed. Your refusal to address your own words, do not make a falsehood true.

I have no idea where you get your nonsense, but the words of Scripture are very clear: the Old Covenant was planned by God to end (as explained in Jer 31 and reiterated in Heb 8), and a New Covenant to be established in Christ. The New Covenant has almost all of the same "rules" and mandates of righteousness, but not all of them (as detailed before).

You have absolutely no proof for this statement. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. Man was created first, then God Sanctified and set apart the 7th day. Why??? Jesus, that is, the Jesus "of the bible" told you it was made for man. The teaching that God hid this creation from men, the very men Jesus said the Sabbath was made for, is foolishness. And the only reason men would promote such a thing, is to justify the popular ancient religious tradition of rejecting God's Sabbath. Something religious men have done for a very long time. Neither Jesus, nor His Disciples, nor the Body of Christ in the NT rejected the Commandments of God.

Did God expect men to Love Him with all their heart and soul between Creation and Sinai? Of course, you will not answer. And yet this Law too, was not mentioned until the Exodus.

Yes, the sabbath was made for man (God certainly doesn't need to rest or recover His strength), and yet the command to keep the sabbath was not codified until Sinai. It may have been something they did between Creation and Sinai, but it was not codified into Law, nor was it written as a command given by God to any of God's people before then. But it is also completely clear that it is no longer a day that is mandated by God to keep, because in Col 2:16-23 we are told that the sabbath is a shadow of the things in Christ. And again in Rom 14 we are told that one person (you) hold one day greater than the others (sabbath), and another (I) hold all days equally great. Both do so to God, and by God are upheld in our honor of Him. He is our Judge (you are not mine and I am not yours), so if He is accepting of each of us because we are both firmly convinced of the rightness of what we believe, then who are we to condemn the other.

There is no distinction made between any of the 10 Commandments. You create a distinction to preserve your religious tradition. This world's religions make a distinction to fill the seats of their manmade shrines of worship. But God, Jesus, Paul, no one in the Scriptures, EVER, promoted or even implied that some of God's commandments in the 10, was worthy of man's respect, and some were not worthy of man's respect.

I have never said otherwise. The 10 Commandments were given as part of the Old Covenant Law, and as such were completely worthy of honor, respect, and obedience. But the OT Law was removed with the death of Christ, and today we live under the New Covenant Law. Nine of the 10 Commandments were restated in the New Covenant Law, but the 4th commandment was not ever restated in the New Covenant.

This is simply undeniable Biblical Fact. This is why you can only use your own words to promote this part of your adopted religious philosophy, because there isn't any Scriptures to support your belief that mere men can Judge God, and His Commandments, as unworthy of their honor and respect, and be accepted. The Jesus "of the bible" never behaved in this manner for even one second.

Again, this is undeniable Biblical Fact. Will you be persuaded? Jesus said you would not.

Absolutely I would be persuaded if the command to keep the sabbath were given anywhere in the NT. But it is not. It is even mentioned in the NT as something that is not necessary to keep. So, do I keep it, Yes, as often as I can. But is it a sin not to keep it? No, it is not a sin for me to not keep the sabbath.

Again, you have nothing but worldly religious tradition of men to support this religious philosophy. You have Judged God's Word, some as unworthy of your respect and honor. I believe God knows what HE is talking about. And that when Jesus said a commandment was made for men, I should listen to Him, not imply in my religion that HE only spoke the truth sometimes. And other times we should pattern our life after the words of the Pope, or Kenneth Copeland.

I don't know who Ken is, and the pope is a pagan leader of a pagan religion (not a Christ Follower), so I don't listen to, or pattern my life after, the words of either one of them.
But no, my statement is not based on "worldly religious tradition". It is based off of Scripture and the commands of God in the NT under which I live today. There is no command or mandate in the NT to keep the Old Law, nor is there a command in the NT to keep the sabbath. If you can point it out to me, then I will certainly begin to keep it. But since you cannot show me where that command is given in the NT, I am free in Christ to not keep it.

Gen. 7: 1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

So once again, what you promote, and what the Holy scriptures actually teach, are completely opposite. Will you address this Biblical Truth? Will you be corrected? Or will you simply continue justifying your own adopted religious philosophy.

Gen. 8: 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Will you really try and justify the religious philosophy that Abraham didn't know about the Clean and Unclean animals preserved on the Ark by God through Noah?

Of course, you must. Because to admit the undeniable truth of what I just posted, would expose a deception you are promoting. And since there is no doubt your preaching regarding clean and unclean animals is proven false, then so could your preaching regarding God's sabbaths, and adultery, and killing, and stealing, and hating brothers from the heart, or looking on the nakedness of our fathers, like Ham did.

Then you too, like all men, would have to make the same choice Abraham and all men must make. Do we repent and turn to God? Or do we continue in our religious tradition which causes men who follow them to Transgress God's Commandments.

I know these things, because I too, lived in the religions of this world, just like you. And I too, started to SEE what was actually written, VS what this world's Preachers were promoting, just as you are being shown here.

Which animals did God give to Noah to eat after the Flood? He gave him EVERY animal (not just the clean) to eat.
Gen 9:3 - "Every moving thing that is alive shall be food for you; I have given everything to you, as I gave the green plant."
While Noah and Abraham may have known clean from unclean beasts, there was not a mandate from God to not eat the unclean until Sinai.

My hope is that you might turn away from this world's religions, and turn towards the Kingdom of God, and HIS Righteousness, that the Jesus of the bible said to "Seek First".

There is no sense to continue if a man can't accept these simply undeniable Biblical Truths.

"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." - Col 2:20-23
I have died with Christ, and as this passage says, I am now free from the commands and teachings of man that say "do not handle, do not taste, do not touch." I serve the Lord God and the Son Jesus, and their commands under which I live today do not command me to keep the sabbath or to not eat certain foods.
"Therefore let’s not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this: not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s or sister’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to the one who thinks something is unclean, to that person it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother or sister is hurt, you are no longer walking in accordance with love. Do not destroy with your choice of food that person for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God and approved by other people. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats and causes offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." - Rom 14:13-23
As Paul, I know and am convinced that nothing is unclean in itself. But if you believe something is unclean, then FOR YOU it is unclean. And if you are not completely convinced that it is clean, then you would not be eating from faith, and so eating would be a sin for you. But it is not a sin for me to eat unless my freedom causes you to eat without believing and so sin. If you want to continue in your current belief, please do so and I pray God accept you. But please do not condemn me in your ignorance, because I am not your servant but God's, and He has accepted me because my faith in Him is solid.

 

[Studyman]

I have no idea where you get your nonsense, but the words of Scripture are very clear: the Old Covenant was planned by God to end

Yes, there was an agreement (Covenant) that was "ADDED" to God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments, that was temporary.

According to the God "of the Bible", for a time men were to receive God's Laws, "Through this Priesthood". And man was to obtain forgiveness of sins, "Through this Priesthood".

But in Jeremiah 31, God Promised of a Time "after those days" when men would receive God's Laws from God Himself, apart from the Levitical Priesthood. And the Sins of men would be forgiven by God, "apart" from the Priesthood, sacrificial "works of the Law".

It's right there in front of your face but will not be persuaded, just as Jesus said.

(as explained in Jer 31 and reiterated in Heb 8), and a New Covenant to be established in Christ. The New Covenant has almost all of the same "rules" and mandates of righteousness, but not all of them (as detailed before).

Yes, the New Priesthood is established in Christ, making it necessary for there to be, by necessity, a change in the Priesthood Law. As according to this temporary Covenant, only a Levite could become a Priest of God.

Heb. explains this, and I posted it. But you refused to acknowledge what it actually says, choosing instead to promote the falsehood that God created His Laws, Statutes and Judgments, only to "Abolish them" after Jesus was murdered.

Yes, the sabbath was made for man (God certainly doesn't need to rest or recover His strength), and yet the command to keep the sabbath was not codified until Sinai.

The Command to Love God with all our hearts was not codified either. The Command to Love thy neighbor as thyself, was not yet codified either. Thou shall not Kill, was not Codified, and neither was God's Law forbidding Adultery, or Idolatry.

So then, according to your religion, none of these Laws of God exist today, because God didn't have them written down until Moses?

And yet God punished, even destroyed men who "Transgressed His Commandments" prior to Moses.

Can't you see how utterly ridiculous this foolishness is that you are promoting?

It may have been something they did between Creation and Sinai, but it was not codified into Law, nor was it written as a command given by God to any of God's people before then.

I know you are here to promote your own religion. Nevertheless, it seems prudent to post what is actually written.

Ex. 16: 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

They are not yet to Sinai. The Sabbath existed before they were shown it. And it was not yet "Codified" in your definition, as if God actually telling someone something doesn't count until HE has it written down. Can't you see the foolishness in such a religious philosophy?

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

But wait a minute, you are working so hard to convince as many as you can, that there were "NO" Commandments or LAWS of God in effect before Sinai, as they were not yet "Codified".

And even after they were Codified, they were still only Temporary, created to be abolished.

This is a seductive religious philosophy, and I can see how this world's religions seduced so "many" into rejecting what God actually says into following them instead.

But as you should be able to see, when the lipstick is taken of this religious philosophy you have adopted, it become clear it comes from the imagination of men's heart, not the One True God Jesus said to "Know" was eternal life.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, there was an agreement (Covenant) that was "ADDED" to God's Laws, Statutes and Judgments, that was temporary.

According to the God "of the Bible", for a time men were to receive God's Laws, "Through this Priesthood". And man was to obtain forgiveness of sins, "Through this Priesthood".

But in Jeremiah 31, God Promised of a Time "after those days" when men would receive God's Laws from God Himself, apart from the Levitical Priesthood. And the Sins of men would be forgiven by God, "apart" from the Priesthood, sacrificial "works of the Law".

It's right there in front of your face but will not be persuaded, just as Jesus said.

Yes, the New Priesthood is established in Christ, making it necessary for there to be, by necessity, a change in the Priesthood Law. As according to this temporary Covenant, only a Levite could become a Priest of God.

Heb. explains this, and I posted it. But you refused to acknowledge what it actually says, choosing instead to promote the falsehood that God created His Laws, Statutes and Judgments, only to "Abolish them" after Jesus was murdered.

The Command to Love God with all our hearts was not codified either. The Command to Love thy neighbor as thyself, was not yet codified either. Thou shall not Kill, was not Codified, and neither was God's Law forbidding Adultery, or Idolatry.

So then, according to your religion, none of these Laws of God exist today, because God didn't have them written down until Moses?

And yet God punished, even destroyed men who "Transgressed His Commandments" prior to Moses.

Can't you see how utterly ridiculous this foolishness is that you are promoting?

I know you are here to promote your own religion. Nevertheless, it seems prudent to post what is actually written.

Ex. 16: 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

They are not yet to Sinai. The Sabbath existed before they were shown it. And it was not yet "Codified" in your definition, as if God actually telling someone something doesn't count until HE has it written down. Can't you see the foolishness in such a religious philosophy?

24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.

26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.

27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.

28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

But wait a minute, you are working so hard to convince as many as you can, that there were "NO" Commandments or LAWS of God in effect before Sinai, as they were not yet "Codified".

And even after they were Codified, they were still only Temporary, created to be abolished.

This is a seductive religious philosophy, and I can see how this world's religions seduced so "many" into rejecting what God actually says into following them instead.

But as you should be able to see, when the lipstick is taken of this religious philosophy you have adopted, it become clear it comes from the imagination of men's heart, not the One True God Jesus said to "Know" was eternal life.

The Law of Christ restates the prohibition against murder, and adultery, and theft, and coveting, and many other of the sins enumerated in the OT, so no, I do not advocate that we are free to do those things sinlessly.

But I am not going to keep arguing with you. As I said (and you so conveniently ignored the most important parts of my comments, and the Scripture upon which they are based), you believe you are still trapped under the Old Covenant Law, and so for you it is still binding. I know, as Paul did, that I am free from the Old Covenant, and the Law of Moses, and am bound to the Law of Christ.

"If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of man? 23 These are matters which do have the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and humility and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence." - Col 2:20-23
I have died with Christ, and as this passage says, I am now free from the commands and teachings of man that say "do not handle, do not taste, do not touch." I serve the Lord God and the Son Jesus, and their commands under which I live today do not command me to keep the sabbath or to not eat certain foods.

"Therefore let’s not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this: not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s or sister’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to the one who thinks something is unclean, to that person it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother or sister is hurt, you are no longer walking in accordance with love. Do not destroy with your choice of food that person for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For the one who serves Christ in this way is acceptable to God and approved by other people. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the person who eats and causes offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or sister stumbles. 22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is the one who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." - Rom 14:13-23
As Paul, I know and am convinced that nothing is unclean in itself. But if you believe something is unclean, then FOR YOU it is unclean. And if you are not completely convinced that it is clean, then you would not be eating from faith, and so eating would be a sin for you. But it is not a sin for me to eat unless my freedom causes you to eat without believing and so sin. If you want to continue in your current belief, please do so and I pray God accept you. But please do not condemn me in your ignorance, because I am not your servant but God's, and He has accepted me because my faith in Him is solid.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I get every part of that phrase. Yes, man is convicted of Sin by the Holy Spirit, but that does not save him. You can know absolutely that you are a sinner; you can hear the Spirit's call and know that you are condemned to Hell, but if you do nothing about it, you will not be saved.

BINGO!!! And the "Conviction" will pass.

That is not what Scripture says. Acts 2:38 says that forgiveness of sin is the result of being baptized.

But the BIBLE SAYS that being born again is the result of FAITH (gifted by God), and NOT BY WORKS.

Faith requires, demands, and is lifeless, useless, and meaningless without, action

You've got it exactly backwards. FAITH (biblical faith) PRODUCES "action", and not the other way around (the Message of JAMES).

 

[Studyman]

But it is also completely clear that it is no longer a day that is mandated by God to keep, because in Col 2:16-23 we are told that the sabbath is a shadow of the things in Christ.

Since you are using this verse to destroy and make void so much of God's Word, perhaps we should look at it and see what it actually says.

Col. 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So yes, Paul and the Body of Christ observed God's Sabbath and His feasts, because they are a Shadow of Things to come? But this "Body" of believers are of Christ. So of course, these faithful men, these Servants of God's Righteousness who have followed Paul's advice and "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, not man, knowing that in doing so, this world's religions would Judge them and call them names, are instructed by Paul not to allow themselves to be Judged by men of this world.

Paul continues;

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Jesus and the Body of Christ, like Stephen and the early Church of God under HIS new Priest, walked in the Holy Days and Sabbaths. They voluntarily humbled themselves from being, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

And these men repented and put on the New Man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Jesus also promotes this same Gospel. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

As Paul also teaches in "Rom. 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's Righteousness) righteousness.

So of course, Paul is teaching the Body of Christ not to let any man judge them in their obedience, honor and respect for the One True God, and His Statutes HE created their own Good. His Stutes are shadows of things yet to come.

The religion you have adopted, and are now promoting, also has sabbaths and high days. Xmas, Halloween, being the two greatest high days in the entire world, are shadows of nothing. The Catholic sabbath is a shadow of nothing, and yet it is honored by the same men who judge others for their voluntary humility towards God's Holy Feasts.

At any rate, just as Jer. 31 doesn't even imply that God created laws just to abolish them, so also does Col. 2 not make void the Law and Prophets, or the Feast's of the Lord Jesus and all the examples of faithful men walked in.

And again in Rom 14 we are told that one person (you) hold one day greater than the others (sabbath), and another (I) hold all days equally great.
Both do so to God, and by God are upheld in our honor of Him. He is our Judge (you are not mine and I am not yours), so if He is accepting of each of us because we are both firmly convinced of the rightness of what we believe, then who are we to condemn the other.

Again, since you are using this verse to make void a commandment of God that Jesus walked in, and given your track record to date, perhaps we should actually look at what is actually written.

Rom. 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another (man) esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

What difference does it make, what one man esteems or what another man esteems?

Do you think Paul is talking about breaking God's actual commandment here? Who told you Paul is speaking about the 10 commandments here? Even a man weak in Faith, would know God's commandments. Once again, you are taking a verse, and separating it from the rest of the Bible, and then using it to justify your dislike or distrust in God and the Instruction in Righteousness HE created beforehand that men should walk in them.

It is already clear to anyone interested in Biblical Truth, that God has "Esteemed" the 7th day, above other days from creation. Jesus Himself said this Day that God Esteemed above other days, was "Esteemed" by God "for men".

Paul isn't telling men "Weak in the faith" to reject God's Commandments. But why judge a brother who esteems 4th of July or thanksgiving over some other "day" esteemed by men of this world.

Should a man not be "Fully Persuaded" to place their Faith in God, "AND" His Son who this same God sent?

I have never said otherwise. The 10 Commandments were given as part of the Old Covenant Law, and as such were completely worthy of honor, respect, and obedience. But the OT Law was removed with the death of Christ, and today we live under the New Covenant Law.

That is this world's philosophy, not God's, or the Jesus "of the Bible".

Jesus Himself said not to even "Think" of such things. And yet, your entire religion is founded on what Jesus said HE didn't come to do.

Nine of the 10 Commandments were restated in the New Covenant Law, but the 4th commandment was not ever restated in the New Covenant.

Per the Pope, or Constantine, this may be true. But there isn't ONE place in the Entire Bible where God, Jesus or Paul EVER teaches that God reduced HIS 10 Commandments, to 9 commandments.

This is why Jesus and Paul warned so much about men "Who come in Christ's Name" but are actually deceivers. Following these men, would cause me to walk in manmade traditions, which would cause me to "Transgress God's Commandments". Why you actually believe that the Pharisees would be rejected for such behavior, but not you is amazing to me.

But those Christians in Matt. 7:21 also believed the exact same thing.

 

[Doug Brents]

But the BIBLE SAYS that being born again is the result of FAITH (gifted by God), and NOT BY WORKS.

Salvation is the gift of God, not faith. Faith is the combination of our intellectual assent (belief) in the Gospel, and our actions in response to that assent. If there is no action, then there really isn't any assent.

You've got it exactly backwards. FAITH (biblical faith) PRODUCES "action", and not the other way around (the Message of JAMES).

I did not say it backwards, you read it backwards. Yes, faith produces action, and if it does not, then the "faith" is not real, it is dead, worthless, and meaningless. It is living faith, action producing faith, that saves. And that action must precede our reception of salvation, as Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16 and many other passages state.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Salvation is the gift of God, not faith.

FALSE - Faith comes by GOD'S WORD to you (the "Hearing of faith"). Salvation certainly IS a "Gift" from God, but it's the RESULT of our response to HIS WORD when it tells us that we're SINNERS. and we repent of that.

Faith is the combination of our intellectual assent (belief) in the Gospel, and our actions in response to that assent.

Nope FAITH is the only reason that we DO ANYTHING about out spiritual state in the first place. THEN there will be good works AFTER we're Born again.

If there is no action, then there really isn't any assent.

True. and according to James, there never was any FAITH either.

Yes, faith produces action, and if it does not, then the "faith" is not real, it is dead, worthless, and meaningless.

I agree. FAITH works, "belief" doesn't.

It is living faith, action producing faith, that saves. And that action must precede our reception of salvation, as Rom 10:9-10, Acts 3:19, Acts 22:16 and many other passages state.

SO you believe in Salvation by WORKS, then.

 

[Doug Brents]

Since you are using this verse to destroy and make void so much of God's Word, perhaps we should look at it and see what it actually says.

Col. 2: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So yes, Paul and the Body of Christ observed God's Sabbath and His feasts, because they are a Shadow of Things to come? But this "Body" of believers are of Christ. So of course, these faithful men, these Servants of God's Righteousness who have followed Paul's advice and "Yielded themselves" servants to obey God, not man, knowing that in doing so, this world's religions would Judge them and call them names, are instructed by Paul not to allow themselves to be Judged by men of this world.

Paul continues;

18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Jesus and the Body of Christ, like Stephen and the early Church of God under HIS new Priest, walked in the Holy Days and Sabbaths. They voluntarily humbled themselves from being, "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience"

And these men repented and put on the New Man "which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Jesus also promotes this same Gospel. "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

As Paul also teaches in "Rom. 6: 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's Righteousness) righteousness.

So of course, Paul is teaching the Body of Christ not to let any man judge them in their obedience, honor and respect for the One True God, and His Statutes HE created their own Good. His Stutes are shadows of things yet to come.

Ahh, you started too late in the context to really get the full gist of what Paul (or rather, the Holy Spirit through Paul) is saying. Go back to verse 8 and following:
"See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over every ruler and authority; 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him."
What was the "certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us"? The Old Covenant including the Law of Moses.
He took away the debt which consisted of decrees against us (the Laws of the Old Covenant that we could not keep, but He did), and removed them, nailing them to the cross, ending the Old Covenant.

The religion you have adopted, and are now promoting, also has sabbaths and high days. Xmas, Halloween, being the two greatest high days in the entire world, are shadows of nothing. The Catholic sabbath is a shadow of nothing, and yet it is honored by the same men who judge others for their voluntary humility towards God's Holy Feasts.

At any rate, just as Jer. 31 doesn't even imply that God created laws just to abolish them, so also does Col. 2 not make void the Law and Prophets, or the Feast's of the Lord Jesus and all the examples of faithful men walked in.

No, Christmas, Halloween, Easter, etc. are not high days. They are not religious holidays at all, as far as I am concerned. Communion is the only mandated "holiday" in the NT, and it doesn't have a mandatory schedule, but is to be celebrated "as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup". This came from the Passover, but in some Churches in Acts was done weekly (not annually).

Again, since you are using this verse to make void a commandment of God that Jesus walked in, and given your track record to date, perhaps we should actually look at what is actually written.

Rom. 14: 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another (man) esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

What difference does it make, what one man esteems or what another man esteems?

What difference does it make? Much. Reading the context, you can see that the Holy Spirit is telling us that what an individual believe makes a great impact on what is right and what is wrong for that individual. We see this at the end of Rom 14, "But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin." If the one weak in faith eats, he eats condemnation to himself, but for the one who has greater faith, he can eat and not be condemned.

Do you think Paul is talking about breaking God's actual commandment here? Who told you Paul is speaking about the 10 commandments here? Even a man weak in Faith, would know God's commandments. Once again, you are taking a verse, and separating it from the rest of the Bible, and then using it to justify your dislike or distrust in God and the Instruction in Righteousness HE created beforehand that men should walk in them.

It is already clear to anyone interested in Biblical Truth, that God has "Esteemed" the 7th day, above other days from creation. Jesus Himself said this Day that God Esteemed above other days, was "Esteemed" by God "for men".

Paul isn't telling men "Weak in the faith" to reject God's Commandments. But why judge a brother who esteems 4th of July or thanksgiving over some other "day" esteemed by men of this world.

Should a man not be "Fully Persuaded" to place their Faith in God, "AND" His Son who this same God sent?


That is this world's philosophy, not God's, or the Jesus "of the Bible".
Jesus Himself said not to even "Think" of such things. And yet, your entire religion is founded on what Jesus said HE didn't come to do.

What does it mean to fulfill a contract? Hmm? Jesus said He did not come to cancel the contract (Old Covenant). Then He immediately said that He came to fulfill it. What does that mean? What happens to a contract whose requirements have all been fulfilled? It ceases to be binding on either party. Once Jesus fulfilled the Old Covenant on behalf of Man, and rose from the dead to fulfill the Covenant on behalf of God, the Covenant ceased to be binding on either God or Man. So God instituted the New Covenant in Jesus' blood in its place.

Per the Pope, or Constantine, this may be true. But there isn't ONE place in the Entire Bible where God, Jesus or Paul EVER teaches that God reduced HIS 10 Commandments, to 9 commandments.

This is why Jesus and Paul warned so much about men "Who come in Christ's Name" but are actually deceivers. Following these men, would cause me to walk in manmade traditions, which would cause me to "Transgress God's Commandments". Why you actually believe that the Pharisees would be rejected for such behavior, but not you is amazing to me.

But those Christians in Matt. 7:21 also believed the exact same thing.

No, God did not reduce the 10 Commandments to 9. Jesus reduced them to two: Love God and Love your neighbor. And there is absolutely no place in all of the New Testament where all ten of the 10 Commandments are stated. Of the ten, one, two, three, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten are all restated in one form or another. But four is not restated in the New Covenant. And it is the New Covenant under which we live today.

 

[Doug Brents]

FALSE - Faith comes by GOD'S WORD to you (the "Hearing of faith"). Salvation certainly IS a "Gift" from God, but it's the RESULT of our response to HIS WORD when it tells us that we're SINNERS. and we repent of that.

Based on your statement highlighted in blue above, how is mine false? Yes, faith comes through hearing the Word of God (the Gospel of Jesus) and believe it (giving intellectual assent to it), and then acting on that assent to obey it. That is faith.

Nope FAITH is the only reason that we DO ANYTHING about out spiritual state in the first place. THEN there will be good works AFTER we're Born again.

If there is no action taken in response to our belief, then our belief does not really exist. That is what "dead faith" would look like. James 2:14-26 is very clear, stating in verses 20, 22, 24, & 26, that faith without action is dead, worthless, non-existent, and meaningless. Now, look at Rom 10:9-10. Clearly there is a physical action that LEADS TO our reception of salvation: confession of Jesus as LORD with our mouth. This is a verbal, public (according to Matt 10:32-33) action that must precede our reception of salvation, and without which salvation is not received.

True. and according to James, there never was any FAITH either.

I agree. FAITH works, "belief" doesn't.

SO you believe in Salvation by WORKS, then.

Absolutely not. I believe that we are saved through Jesus' sacrifice for us, and that gift is received by us through a living active faith. We are incapable of earning salvation by any action we take. But if we take no action, then we do not receive His gift. Heb 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. If salvation comes before obedience, then that verse becomes a lie.