"Works Salvation"

[Bob Carabbio]

Based on your statement highlighted in blue above, how is mine false? Yes, faith comes through hearing the Word of God (the Gospel of Jesus) and believe it (giving intellectual assent to it), and then acting on that assent to obey it. That is faith.

If there is no action taken in response to our belief, then our belief does not really exist. That is what "dead faith" would look like. James 2:14-26 is very clear, stating in verses 20, 22, 24, & 26, that faith without action is dead, worthless, non-existent, and meaningless. Now, look at Rom 10:9-10. Clearly there is a physical action that LEADS TO our reception of salvation: confession of Jesus as LORD with our mouth. This is a verbal, public (according to Matt 10:32-33) action that must precede our reception of salvation, and without which salvation is not received.

Absolutely not. I believe that we are saved through Jesus' sacrifice for us, and that gift is received by us through a living active faith. We are incapable of earning salvation by any action we take. But if we take no action, then we do not receive His gift. Heb 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him. If salvation comes before obedience, then that verse becomes a lie.

Over-complicating the whole thing I think.

I was Born again in my Bedroom without DOING anything except calling out to God in FAITH to SAVE ME!!!!

There were no physical actions, or religious activities required, other than being Baptized 4 days later, which changed NOTHING (Except I did have to change my clothes).

What "Action" do you propose that we need to take???

 

[Doug Brents]

Over-complicating the whole thing I think.

I was Born again in my Bedroom without DOING anything except calling out to God in FAITH to SAVE ME!!!!

There were no physical actions, or religious activities required, other than being Baptized 4 days later, which changed NOTHING (Except I did have to change my clothes).

I'm sorry for your confusion, but you were not saved when you called out "Save me!" Scripture says clearly that salvation does not happen that way.

Don't take my word for it; read the Scriptures.
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins, and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16 - whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Rom 6:1-4 - buried with Christ in baptism (old man goes in) so that we may be resurrected as Christ was (new man comes out).
Col 2:11-14 - during baptism the Holy Spirit circumcises our sin from us and unites us with Jesus death and resurrection.
1 Pet 3:21 - just as Noah and family were saved through the water of the Flood, we are saved through the water of baptism.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus cleanses us and makes us pure through the washing of water with the Word.

What "Action" do you propose that we need to take???

It is not me who would propose that you take any action. It is Scripture that commands you take these actions:
Hear the Gospel and believe it - Rom 10:17
Repent of sins - Acts 3:19
Confess Jesus as Lord - Rom 10:9-10
Be baptized in water - numerous verses some of which are listed above.

These are all actions that Scripture says "lead to" our reception of salvation. All other actions "flow out of" having received salvation, and are the "good works" that are the fruit of the Spirit (who is received because we have done the four actions listed above that "lead to" receiving salvation).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I'm sorry for your confusion, but you were not saved when you called out "Save me!" Scripture says clearly that salvation does not happen that way.

Don't take my word for it;

O.K. - I won't - Good bye

 

[Doug Brents]

O.K. - I won't - Good bye

LOL, so you won't take Scripture's word for it either? Sad, so sad.

 

[101G]

to all.
Not haven't read all the posts. SALVATION and Works. what's the problem? this is very easy to answer. are some caught between the apostle Paul and the apostle James?

this has been settle many a years, and I mean many a years ago. Salvation is not based on any Works TO BE SAVED. no, but salvation produce works.

let get the understanding of what both Paul and James are saying about our "POSITION" is concerning Salvation.

before we're saved there is no works that we can do to be saved except to repent and confess the Lord Jesus.

after we're saved then we go to Work. this can be seen in a clear example in worldly Employment. one do not walk on a JOB and start working and expect to get paid at the end of the week. one must be HIRED first. the same is with salvation before being HIRED, and after one is hired.

one do not work before they are HIRED/SAVED, and expect to be paid. they go to work and be paid, because they are HIRED/SAVED.

so both apostles are correct, Paul before you're saved, there is no work for you to do. James, because you're now SAVE, you go to Work.

understand, as the apostle James said, and with our example, show me your paycheck/FAITH without your works, and I'll show you my Paycheck/FAITH by my work. only when one is saved/Hired do they work and have a paycheck/FAITH, and having Faith/Paycheck is the proof of your salvation, to show for it.

hope that helped.

101G.

 

[Studyman]

Ahh, you started too late in the context to really get the full gist of what Paul (or rather, the Holy Spirit through Paul) is saying. Go back to verse 8 and following:
"See to it that there is no one who takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception in accordance with human tradition, in accordance with the elementary principles of the world, rather than in accordance with Christ.

This is a perfect example of why I left the religion you are promoting some 30 years ago now, and am warning others about it.

You are convinced and preach to the world, that Paul is teaching here that God's Judgments and Commandments, are "man's Philosophy" and that God's "instruction in righteousness" are really "empty deceptions". And that the Commandments Jesus and the Faithful in the Bible walked in are "Traditions of men" and that they are "Rudiments" or "elementary principles" of this world that Paul teaches to beware of.

For those reading along, God's instruction is "made for man", not created by man. But one would have to "Believe in the One True God, "AND" the Jesus "of the Bible", in order to accept these truths.

Paul explains perfectly how a man can judge the God and Father of the Lord's Christ in this manner, and not even bat an eye.


Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, "they became fools,"

So what do these religious fools do?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made "like to corruptible man", and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

That is exactly how men can call God's Words and Instruction in Righteousness, "Philosophies of men", "empty Deceptions", "traditions of men" and (Rudiments) "of this world", Beggarly Elements" and "Yoke of Bondage" and not even blush. And when someone opens their own Bible and points out the foolishness and Hubris of this religious philosophy, they reject it just as men have been rejecting the Words of God and those He sent since before Noah.

With this leaven firmly implanted in the hearts of men, everything they read in Scriptures is infected by this leaven. When they see "Beggarly Elements", they atomically believe this refers to "God's Laws". When they see "Yoke of Bondage", they preach to others this is "God's Judgments".

Just as the serpent convinced Eve that God lied to her, so also have you been convinced God lied to you.

They have created an image of God in their mind, in the Likness of men. And then they Judge Him, as you do in all your posts, as if HE were a man, promoting corruptible works and commanding that men should walk in them.

This is how religious man can preach to the world that the One True God is the Promoter of "Empty Deceptions" and "traditions of men" and Rudiments of this world", and feel absolutely no Shame?

This condition has been around for a long time.

Jer. 6: 13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not "at all ashamed", neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

16 Thus saith the LORD (Who became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, (Or as this same Christ said when HE became a man, "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness") and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

But they said, We will not walk therein. As it is to this day.

I don't believe in the image of God you are promoting here on these posts, although I see it plastered on Billboards and stores, and preached all over this land. A God who created a partition between men depending on the DNA they were born with. A God whose Laws and Judgments are "Vain deceit" and a "Yoke of Bondage" and "Against us". A God who punished the Pharisees for doing as God instructed. A God who gained the trust of Israel, only to place unbearable Yoke of Bondage on their necks, and then lied to them about His Laws being for their own good.

But I know from 30 years' experience how this works. You must preserve your philosophy to save face. So none of these things I posted, the scriptures I reference, the implications of your teaching that I exposed, or the questions I posed will matter. Only self-justification.

Of course, you will want the last word so you can justify your preaching that God's Laws and Judgments are the "Vain deceit" and "Traditions of men" Paul said to "Beware of" to the Colossians. And as Jesus said, you will not be persuaded otherwise.

Thanks for the discussion though, it solidifies the warnings Jesus gave me regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

 

[Doug Brents]

This is a perfect example of why I left the religion you are promoting some 30 years ago now, and am warning others about it.

You are convinced and preach to the world, that Paul is teaching here that God's Judgments and Commandments, are "man's Philosophy" and that God's "instruction in righteousness" are really "empty deceptions". And that the Commandments Jesus and the Faithful in the Bible walked in are "Traditions of men" and that they are "Rudiments" or "elementary principles" of this world that Paul teaches to beware of.

For those reading along, God's instruction is "made for man", not created by man. But one would have to "Believe in the One True God, "AND" the Jesus "of the Bible", in order to accept these truths.

Paul explains perfectly how a man can judge the God and Father of the Lord's Christ in this manner, and not even bat an eye.


Rom. 1: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, "they became fools,"

So what do these religious fools do?

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made "like to corruptible man", and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

That is exactly how men can call God's Words and Instruction in Righteousness, "Philosophies of men", "empty Deceptions", "traditions of men" and (Rudiments) "of this world", Beggarly Elements" and "Yoke of Bondage" and not even blush. And when someone opens their own Bible and points out the foolishness and Hubris of this religious philosophy, they reject it just as men have been rejecting the Words of God and those He sent since before Noah.

With this leaven firmly implanted in the hearts of men, everything they read in Scriptures is infected by this leaven. When they see "Beggarly Elements", they atomically believe this refers to "God's Laws". When they see "Yoke of Bondage", they preach to others this is "God's Judgments".

Just as the serpent convinced Eve that God lied to her, so also have you been convinced God lied to you.

They have created an image of God in their mind, in the Likness of men. And then they Judge Him, as you do in all your posts, as if HE were a man, promoting corruptible works and commanding that men should walk in them.

This is how religious man can preach to the world that the One True God is the Promoter of "Empty Deceptions" and "traditions of men" and Rudiments of this world", and feel absolutely no Shame?

This condition has been around for a long time.

Jer. 6: 13 For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely. 14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not "at all ashamed", neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the LORD.

16 Thus saith the LORD (Who became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, (Or as this same Christ said when HE became a man, "Seek Ye first the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness") and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

But they said, We will not walk therein. As it is to this day.

I don't believe in the image of God you are promoting here on these posts, although I see it plastered on Billboards and stores, and preached all over this land. A God who created a partition between men depending on the DNA they were born with. A God whose Laws and Judgments are "Vain deceit" and a "Yoke of Bondage" and "Against us". A God who punished the Pharisees for doing as God instructed. A God who gained the trust of Israel, only to place unbearable Yoke of Bondage on their necks, and then lied to them about His Laws being for their own good.

But I know from 30 years' experience how this works. You must preserve your philosophy to save face. So none of these things I posted, the scriptures I reference, the implications of your teaching that I exposed, or the questions I posed will matter. Only self-justification.

Of course, you will want the last word so you can justify your preaching that God's Laws and Judgments are the "Vain deceit" and "Traditions of men" Paul said to "Beware of" to the Colossians. And as Jesus said, you will not be persuaded otherwise.

Thanks for the discussion though, it solidifies the warnings Jesus gave me regarding the "many" who come in His Name.

You are making the wrong connections here. The Old Covenant, "everything that was written in the past" (Rom 15:4), was written to teach us and to bring us to hope in Christ. These are not "Empty Deceptions" and "traditions of men" and Rudiments of this world". The traditions of men is to try to remain under the Old Covenant Law which has been removed by God. Look at Rom 15:4. What is the purpose of the OT writings for us today? It says clearly in this verse. The purpose of the OT writings, "everything that was written in the past", was to bring us to hope in Christ. It is not for us to continue to follow the OT Law which can only lead us to death.

In Rom 8:2-3, the Holy Spirit, through Paul, contrasts the Law of the Spirit with the Law of Sin and Death. The law of the Spirit is the gospel, the good news of Jesus, the message of new life through faith in the resurrected Christ. The law of sin and death is the Old Testament Law of God. The Old Testament Law is holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12), but, because we cannot keep God’s Law on our own, the result is only sin and death for those under the Law. But we are no longer under that Law, because Christ came to set us free from that Law.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh"

 

[dwight92070]

I'm sorry for your confusion, but you were not saved when you called out "Save me!" Scripture says clearly that salvation does not happen that way.

Don't take my word for it; read the Scriptures.
Acts 2:38 - repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sins, and then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:16 - whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Rom 6:1-4 - buried with Christ in baptism (old man goes in) so that we may be resurrected as Christ was (new man comes out).
Col 2:11-14 - during baptism the Holy Spirit circumcises our sin from us and unites us with Jesus death and resurrection.
1 Pet 3:21 - just as Noah and family were saved through the water of the Flood, we are saved through the water of baptism.
Eph 5:26-27 - Jesus cleanses us and makes us pure through the washing of water with the Word.

It is not me who would propose that you take any action. It is Scripture that commands you take these actions:
Hear the Gospel and believe it - Rom 10:17
Repent of sins - Acts 3:19
Confess Jesus as Lord - Rom 10:9-10
Be baptized in water - numerous verses some of which are listed above.

These are all actions that Scripture says "lead to" our reception of salvation. All other actions "flow out of" having received salvation, and are the "good works" that are the fruit of the Spirit (who is received because we have done the four actions listed above that "lead to" receiving salvation).

Dwight - Doug, although I definitely believe that the first act of obedience after salvation should ideally be water baptism, I do not think that the Bible says salvation cannot happen until we are baptized. In Colossians 2:11, Paul is describing salvation BEFORE baptism: " ... and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; THAT IS SALVATION. Then baptism (after salvation) is mentioned in the next phrase, "having been buried with Him in baptism", which is the outward sign of what Christ did inwardly BEFORE baptism. Just like Abraham had faith BEFORE he was circumcised. Romans 4:12. Circumcision did NOT save him, rather it was his faith "in Him who justifies the ungodly" that was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:5
Only believers (that is, people who are already saved) are candidates for water baptism. This is why we often hear the term "believer's baptism". Unsaved people should never be baptized in water - they haven't met the requirement. Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch the requirement for water baptism: "If you believe with all your heart, you may." Acts 8:37
Water baptism isn't always a possibility immediately after getting saved, for one reason or another. Does this mean the person isn't saved until he is able to be baptized? I don't think so. Paul had to wait 3 days after he was saved before God called Ananias to come to him to regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit. Notice he was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized. Acts 9:9-10 Was he not saved during those 3 days? Of course he was. In fact Ananias called him "Brother Saul" before he was baptized.
Likewise Cornelius' family were saved and had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Acts 10:47

 

[Doug Brents]

Dwight - Doug, although I definitely believe that the first act of obedience after salvation should ideally be water baptism, I do not think that the Bible says salvation cannot happen until we are baptized. In Colossians 2:11, Paul is describing salvation BEFORE baptism: " ... and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; THAT IS SALVATION. Then baptism (after salvation) is mentioned in the next phrase, "having been buried with Him in baptism", which is the outward sign of what Christ did inwardly BEFORE baptism.

You are making a time separation that is not present here.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
Verse 12 says that verse 11 happened because of the baptism. "In which" points back to "buried ... in baptism" as the point in which the circumcision from verse 11 occurs, because it is the circumcision of our sins from us that facilitates our resurrection with Him.

Just like Abraham had faith BEFORE he was circumcised. Romans 4:12. Circumcision did NOT save him, rather it was his faith "in Him who justifies the ungodly" that was credited to him as righteousness. Romans 4:5

Spiritual circumcision is not the same as physical circumcision. Physical circumcision occurred on the 8th day of life (of a male) and was an outward sign of the Old Covenant. Spiritual circumcision occurs during water immersion as the entrance into new Life (for all who enter into Christ) and is the means of being brought into the New Covenant.

Only believers (that is, people who are already saved) are candidates for water baptism. This is why we often hear the term "believer's baptism". Unsaved people should never be baptized in water - they haven't met the requirement. Philip told the Ethiopian eunuch the requirement for water baptism: "If you believe with all your heart, you may." Acts 8:37

Yes, only believers should receive baptism, but belief alone does not save. Heb 5:9 says that Jesus "... became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him". Not those who give intellectual assent (belief), but those who put action behind that belief, and obey.

Water baptism isn't always a possibility immediately after getting saved, for one reason or another. Does this mean the person isn't saved until he is able to be baptized? I don't think so. Paul had to wait 3 days after he was saved before God called Ananias to come to him to regain his sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Hold on a minute here. Was Paul saved on the Road? Let's look at the text.
Acts 22:12-16 - "Now a certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing nearby he said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I looked up at him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear a message from His mouth. 15 For you will be a witness for Him to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’"
1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the Light Jesus' blood continually cleanses us from all sin. Yet Paul (still Saul at this point) was still in sin and needed to have that sin removed. He could not have been saved yet, or he would have had no sin to wash away when Ananias came to talk with him.

Notice he was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized.

Where does Scripture says Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?
"So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized"
Ananias told Saul that he was there because God sent him, that he was there to store Saul's sight, and so that Saul would be filled with the Holy Spirit. But Saul was not yet filled with the Holy Spirit. See Acts 22 above? More happened between God (through Ananias) giving Saul his sight and Saul receiving the Holy Spirit (which again is a result of water baptism as Acts 2:38 says).

Acts 9:9-10 Was he not saved during those 3 days? Of course he was. In fact Ananias called him "Brother Saul" before he was baptized.

Ananias was a Jew. Nationally and biologically, they were kin.

Likewise Cornelius' family were saved and had received the Holy Spirit before they were baptized. Acts 10:47

Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues and praising God), but he did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit (which is a result of water baptism (Acts 2:38)). And if salvation occurred during the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which was a very public and observable event) then water baptism would not have been necessary. But Peter immediately commanded water baptism for him and his house so that they could receive forgiveness of their sins.

 

[dwight92070]

You are making a time separation that is not present here.
"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead."
Verse 12 says that verse 11 happened because of the baptism. "In which" points back to "buried ... in baptism" as the point in which the circumcision from verse 11 occurs, because it is the circumcision of our sins from us that facilitates our resurrection with Him.

Dwight - I think it is just the opposite: burial takes place ONLY AFTER a person has already died. Having already died to the body of the flesh, verse 11, we are then buried with him, verse 12. Baptism is a depiction of our burial with Christ and our being raised with Christ. So having died with Christ, which is salvation, the appropriate next step is to be buried with Him, which is a depiction of our salvation. Baptism is not given to someone, so that they might die - rather it is a depiction or an emblem of what must be done to the person who has died with Christ, and now must be buried.

Dwight - "Belief alone does not save"? I can't believe you said that. Of course belief alone saves! It's not faith plus anything, whether it's water baptism or other good works - NOTHING but faith saves. When they asked Jesus what they should do to do the works of God, His answer: This is the work of God, that you believe in Him who He has sent. He didn't add, "Oh yes, also get baptized." FAITH ALONE saves. AFTER FAITH the FIRST GOOD WORK that Jesus commanded was water baptism.
Sure, faith without works is dead, but true faith produces good works, the first of which for a new believer, should be water baptism.

Spiritual circumcision is not the same as physical circumcision. Physical circumcision occurred on the 8th day of life (of a male) and was an outward sign of the Old Covenant. Spiritual circumcision occurs during water immersion as the entrance into new Life (for all who enter into Christ) and is the means of being brought into the New Covenant.

Dwight - I don't think so. Spiritual circumcision is the cutting off of the sinful body of flesh, which occurs when we are born again, and simultaneously we enter into the New Covenant. Water immersion is a depiction of that body of flesh (since it has died in being born again) now being buried. Spiritual circumcision does not occur during water baptism. If a person is not already spiritually circumcised, saved - then they also should NOT be baptized. Only dead people should be buried. Only saved people should be baptized.

, only believers should receive baptism, but belief alone does not save. Heb 5:9 says that Jesus "... became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey Him". Not those who give intellectual assent (belief), but those who put action behind that belief, and obey.

Hold on a minute here. Was Paul saved on the Road? Let's look at the text.
Acts 22:12-16 - "Now a certain Ananias, a man who was devout by the standard of the Law and well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, 13 came to me, and standing nearby he said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I looked up at him. 14 And he said, ‘The God of our fathers has appointed you to know His will and to see the Righteous One and to hear a message from His mouth. 15 For you will be a witness for Him to all people of what you have seen and heard. 16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins by calling on His name.’"
1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the Light Jesus' blood continually cleanses us from all sin. Yet Paul (still Saul at this point) was still in sin and needed to have that sin removed. He could not have been saved yet, or he would have had no sin to wash away when Ananias came to talk with him.

Dwight - Again, I think you are mistaken. Acts 22:16 does NOT say that being baptized washed away Saul's sins. Rather it says that "calling on His name" saves him, which is synonymous with having his sins taken away. Joel 2:32 confirms this: "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered (or saved -Acts 2:31)" Nowhere in scripture do we read that water baptism cleanses us from sin - only the blood of Jesus does that and by faith in Him and by calling on Him we are saved. By the way, Saul had already called on the name of the Lord in Acts 22:8, when Jesus struck him with blindness and identified Himself. Saul was saved immediately, not three days later when he was baptized. He told King Agrippa in Acts 26:19 "So King Agrippa, I did not prove disobedient to the heavenly vision." Saul immediately OBEYED JESUS and got up and went into Damascus, as Jesus told him to. This is not the action of an unbeliever.
If you or I were struck blind by a bright light from heaven and a man calling Himself Jesus asked us why we were persecuting Him, and if we were persecuting Christians, don't you think we would not only tend to believe Him, but also do whatever he said? I think we would.
Not only that, but EVEN BEFORE ANANIAS CAME TO HIM, and BEFORE HE WAS BAPTIZED, the Lord said to Ananias, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel." God would not have said that about Saul, and chosen him to preach the gospel, if he had not believed Jesus, been given the Holy Spirit, had his sins forgiven, called on His name, and obeyed Him by his own free will.
Also, Ananias would not have called him "Brother Saul", if he was not already a believer.

Where does Scripture says Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?
"So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like fish scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized"
Ananias told Saul that he was there because God sent him, that he was there to store Saul's sight, and so that Saul would be filled with the Holy Spirit. But Saul was not yet filled with the Holy Spirit. See Acts 22 above? More happened between God (through Ananias) giving Saul his sight and Saul receiving the Holy Spirit (which again is a result of water baptism as Acts 2:38 says).

Dwight - I don't think so. First of all, being saved, which, among other things means having the Holy Spirit dwell in you, is NOT THE SAME as BEING FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. The moment Saul believed, he had the Holy Spirit dwelling in him, which many scriptures confirm, whether it says that here or not. Did the Ethiopian eunuch get genuinely saved? Acts 8:27-39 Of course he did. Where does the scripture say that he received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? It doesn't. So just because there is no mention of the Holy Spirit entering into Saul, we know from many other scriptures that that is exactly what happened BEFORE he was baptized.

Ananias was a Jew. Nationally and biologically, they were kin.

Cornelius received the miraculous works of the Holy Spirit (speaking in tongues and praising God), but he did not receive the indwelling of the Spirit (which is a result of water baptism (Acts 2:38)). And if salvation occurred during the baptism of the Holy Spirit (which was a very public and observable event) then water baptism would not have been necessary. But Peter immediately commanded water baptism for him and his house so that they could receive forgiveness of their sins.

Dwight - I can't believe my ears. If Cornelius and his household received the genuine gift of speaking in tongues, then they received not only the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, (salvation, forgiveness of sins) but also being filled with the Holy Spirit all at the same time. Again, water baptism does not now nor has it ever imparted forgiveness of sins. Faith alone in Christ alone imparts forgiveness of sins, NOT some outward work, including water baptism.
Peter told the household of Cornelius, "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM (no mention of water baptism here) receives forgiveness of sins." Yes, Peter told them to be baptized in water, but their salvation and their indwelling and filling of the Holy Spirit has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE.
Jesus came into this world to take away the sin of the world - "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 and yet you want to tell us that water baptism does that? What a dishonor that is to Jesus Himself, the Lamb of God. He Himself said that He had authority on earth to forgive sins, never adding or even hinting that we could ONLY receive that through water baptism. In fact, the man lowered through the roof on a pallet was NEVER told to get baptized in water BEFORE Jesus proclaimed to him, "Your sins are forgiven."

Dwight - Water baptism is commanded by Jesus, for those WHO HAVE ALREADY BECOME BELIEVERS by faith in Jesus, as an emblem or depiction of their burial with Christ and their resurrection with Christ, NOT for them TO GET SAVED or indwelt by the Holy Spirit, or to receive forgiveness of sins.

 

[dwight92070]

I'm beginning to see that arguing over whether water baptism saves or not, is in one sense, missing the whole point.

On the one hand, if water baptism saves a person, then whether I'm sincere or not, all I need to do is be baptized and I'm guaranteed never to go to hell. When I was a kid growing up in a Baptist church, I know many teenagers and even younger kids who did just that. Not only was it "fire insurance", but it was also the Christian kids cool thing to do, to be considered part of the "in" group with other kids in the youth group. And it was not all that much different for adults - they could also be part of the "in" group, having been baptized.

On the other hand, if water baptism does not save a person, then it doesn't really matter whether I get baptized or not. I can take it or leave it. If I want to be seen as more spiritual, I'll get baptized. It that's not an issue for me, then I won't.

There is a 3rd option: Why would anyone who SINCERELY believes Jesus' words and wants to follow Him NOT want to be baptized? Jesus not only set the example for us Himself, by being baptized by John the Baptist (even though John's baptism was for repentance, and Jesus never needed to repent) "to fulfill all righteousness", but He also commanded that it should be preached right along with the gospel of the kingdom of God:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, BAPTIZING them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

I chose NOT to be baptized as a kid, and rightfully so, because looking back, I wasn't born again, although at the time I had no understanding of baptism at all, or of what it meant to be saved. However, it was quite obvious to me, even in my ignorance of spiritual things, that many people who were baptized back then, were not sincere at all - it was just like a spiritual ritual, that you had to go through, to be accepted by your peers - PLUS you got your name printed in the church membership book! I remember how irked I was to see that my name was NOT in the church membership book, because I had chosen NOT to be baptized. My parents names were there and my three siblings names were there, all under the Brown family, but my name was NOT there. It was as if I didn't even exist. Something about that just didn't seem right to my teenage mind, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I felt deep rejection, but said nothing to anyone.

Today, I see that as approaching psychological cruelty. Having a church membership book or just the concept of some kind of record of church membership is totally unBiblical. We are members of the body of Christ as believers, and any church that requires a written church membership record has a twisted view of the body of Christ. Our names are written in His "book"- that's all that matters. And I doubt that even that book is literal. God needs no books or files to remember which of us belongs to Him, and which ones do not.

 

[Aeliana]

Our obedience to God's law is about God graciously giving the gift of salvation to us, not about us earning our salvation from God.

The problem with that is that no one was able to perfectly keep the law. And if you break one part of the law you've broken the whole law.

 

[dwight92070]

I was born again by simply reading the book of Matthew at the age of 21. When I got to Matthew 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.", I knew Jesus was speaking to me.
Ever since I was a child, I wondered if I was really saved, or as the pastor put it, born again. I really could not say for sure. But at the age of 21, I was lonely, confused about the meaning of life, and I prayed, "God, if you are even there, show me what this is all about." I prayed that several times. I was in the Air Force stationed in San Antonio.
I thought that I should investigate world religions other than Christianity, since I already knew what that was about - or so I thought. I even made an appointment with a pastor I saw on TV in downtown San Antonio. I asked him, "How can I know if I'm really saved, really born again?" I don't think he himself knew the answer to that, because whatever he said did not affect me one way or the other, although I was drawn to his sermons. I went back to my barracks still confused but I continued to pray and to ask God to show me the purpose and the meaning of life, and how to be born again.
How would you answer that? How can a person know if they are truly saved or born again?
Well, the thought came to me that even though I grew up in a Christian church and atmosphere, if I was being honest, I didn't know that much about it, so I decided to read about the founder of Christianity, which is Christ Himself. I knew that that information was in the Bible, but I didn't know where in the Bible, so I asked a chaplain, who told me, "Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John." So you see how Biblically illiterate I was. I immediately began reading through Matthew, and when I came to Jesus' words in Matthew 5:3-12, I was blown away, because I realized that Jesus was indirectly describing His own character, as well as advocating that all of His followers should have that same character. When I came to verse 6, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied" it was as if Jesus spoke to my heart, "you shall be saved or born again". I KNEW I was born again at that very moment. The next Sunday, I went to that church in San Antonio, and after his sermon, the pastor asked for those who wanted to be saved to come forward to the front of the church. Even though I knew I was born again, I wanted to publicly make a stand, so I went forward. A man met me at the front and again, whatever he said didn't impact me - he never mentioned water baptism.
It was around the middle of the week that the church secretary called me and said that they were having a baptismal service, and asked if I wanted to be baptized. Immediately I said "yes". If Jesus did it, then I wanted to do it.

From the day that I was born again until the day of my baptism in water, it could have been as many as 14 days.

Was I genuinely saved or born again during those days? I believe I was. I was soaking up the Word like a sponge.

As to the subject of what to tell someone who is asking how to be born again, I think the truth in the following verse must be considered to answer that question:
Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus after telling him that if anyone wants to see and enter into the kingdom of God, he MUST be born again. "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit." John 3:8
We cannot control the Holy Spirit. He comes and goes where He wishes. We don't know where He's coming from or where He is going. We can't use the man-made methods of "getting people saved" and expect that the Holy Spirit will automatically enter into a person who follows these simple steps. The "sinner's prayer -just repeat these words after me", the Romans road, the Four Spiritual Laws, the "I Found It" campaign, the "See You At the Pole" campaign, etc. are all examples of man-made methods to "get people saved".
Although they may have come up with these methods with good intentions, we simply cannot ignore what the Bible says about how we can "get God's attention". In the future, if anyone asks me "How do you get born again?", the following verses will be my answer. When I read them in 1970, I strongly wanted to have the character qualities that Jesus speaks of here. And in just a few minutes, I was born again.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied."
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God."
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God."
"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
"Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

"Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: 'HE JEALOUSLY DESIRES THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HAS MADE TO DWELL IN US'"? But draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and He will exalt you." James 4:5-9
"The Lord is near to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." Psalm 34:18

 

[dwight92070]

I'm sorry for your confusion, but you were not saved when you called out "Save me!" Scripture says clearly that salvation does not happen that way.

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered."
Acts 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 "for whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Actually he has scripture validating his salvation when he called on the name of the Lord.
I agree with you that water baptism is commanded as an act of obedience. So all believers should be baptized ASAP after believing.
Bob Carabbio said he was baptized 4 days later. For me, it was close to 2 weeks later. To say that we were not saved during that interim period between calling on His name and water baptism goes beyond what scripture says.
What if we had died during that interim period? Would we be lost? I don't think so.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm beginning to see that arguing over whether water baptism saves or not, is in one sense, missing the whole point.

On the one hand, if water baptism saves a person, then whether I'm sincere or not, all I need to do is be baptized and I'm guaranteed never to go to hell.

That is not the case at all. Belief is still a prerequisite for baptism, and a continual life of striving to walk in the Light is a post-requisite. Baptism is not a sacrament in that it transmits a grace regardless of the attitude, thoughts, faith, etc. of the person being baptized. Nor does it take the place of living a life of continually growing closer to who Christ is, and emulation of His life on Earth.

When I was a kid growing up in a Baptist church, I know many teenagers and even younger kids who did just that. Not only was it "fire insurance", but it was also the Christian kids cool thing to do, to be considered part of the "in" group with other kids in the youth group. And it was not all that much different for adults - they could also be part of the "in" group, having been baptized.

And for some of them, all they did was get wet. They were not baptized into Christ any more than the Pharisee's prayers were heard by God. They had their reward of being seen to be religious, but they were not right with God.

On the other hand, if water baptism does not save a person, then it doesn't really matter whether I get baptized or not. I can take it or leave it. If I want to be seen as more spiritual, I'll get baptized. It that's not an issue for me, then I won't.

There is a 3rd option: Why would anyone who SINCERELY believes Jesus' words and wants to follow Him NOT want to be baptized? Jesus not only set the example for us Himself, by being baptized by John the Baptist (even though John's baptism was for repentance, and Jesus never needed to repent) "to fulfill all righteousness", but He also commanded that it should be preached right along with the gospel of the kingdom of God:

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

This isn't really a third option, but a portion of the first. Yes, baptism is a commandment of Jesus for all of those who believe the Gospel, and that means that if you are not baptized then you don't really believe in the Lordship of Jesus in your life. But Scripture also says it leads to our reception of salvation. So not only is Christ not your Lord if you refuse to be baptized, but you have not received His gift of forgiveness and salvation if you refuse baptism.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm sorry for your confusion, but you were not saved when you called out "Save me!" Scripture says clearly that salvation does not happen that way.

Joel 2:32 "And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered."
Acts 2:21 "And it shall be that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Romans 10:13 "for whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Actually he has scripture validating his salvation when he called on the name of the Lord.
I agree with you that water baptism is commanded as an act of obedience. So all believers should be baptized ASAP after believing.
Bob Carabbio said he was baptized 4 days later. For me, it was close to 2 weeks later. To say that we were not saved during that interim period between calling on His name and water baptism goes beyond what scripture says.
What if we had died during that interim period? Would we be lost? I don't think so.

No, those passages do not mean that just calling on His name saves. If they did, then it would make Jesus a liar, for in Matt 7:21, He said, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
Just calling Him Lord, just calling on His name, does not save. Doing what He commands saves.

 

[brightfame52]

No, those passages do not mean that just calling on His name saves. If they did, then it would make Jesus a liar, for in Matt 7:21, He said, "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter."
Just calling Him Lord, just calling on His name, does not save. Doing what He commands saves.

Christs doing for sinners is what saves, His doing !

 

[dwight92070]

Christs doing for sinners is what saves, His doing !

Please explain those verses then.

 

[dwight92070]

Not everyone who says to Him, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, BUT MANY WILL. As always those who have genuine faith in Jesus WILL, as long as they continue in faith and obedience. So you are mistaken. Those verses mean exactly what they say. When someone calls on the name of the Lord, they WILL be saved. The obvious implication is that they are calling on Him in faith.
Again, please explain the verses if they do NOT mean what they say.

 

[Doug Brents]

Christs doing for sinners is what saves, His doing !

In a manner of speaking, yes. But if there is no obedience to Him, then there is no salvation received from Him. He gives His salvation, not to those who simply call His name, but to those who obey His command.