civic
Active Member
Yes genuine salvific faith and obedience are two side of the same coin.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight - REPENT and BELIEVE are the two sides of salvation, which is, in itself, OBEDIENCE (but they are not physical works - see Romans 4:5)and the ONLY requirement for salvation. Water baptism is the FIRST PHYSICAL WORK OF OBEDIENCE COMMANDED AFTER BEING SAVED.
Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; REPENT and BELIEVE in the gospel."
Did Jesus forget to require water baptism here? No, that's NOT what saves a person.
Also see Hebrews 6:1-2 " ... not laying again the FOUNDATION of REPENTANCE FROM DEAD WORKS and of FAITH TOWARD GOD". AFTER THESE COMES "instruction about washings (or baptisms)", but that is NOT what saves.
The OBEDIENCE OF REPENTING AND BELIEVING the gospel is what saves a person, NOT water baptism. Yes, water baptism is required to obey if one wants to follow Jesus, along with the hundreds of other commands given in the New Testament.
But if water baptism saves a person, then Paul didn't even understand that:
"For Christ did NOT send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel (so here Paul DOES NOT INCLUDE WATER BAPTISM AS PART OF THE GOSPEL), ... for the word of the cross ... is to us who are saved ... the power of God." 1 Corinthians 1:17-18
If water baptism saves a person, then Christ would have commanded Paul to not only preach the gospel, but to also baptize.
civic
Active Member
If one is not obeying then they have not repented. Obedience is a by product of repentance. Faith precedes both. Genuine faith will result in repentance/obedience.
brightfame52
Active Member
I dont take time to explain other peoples verses, thats there job, not mine. It may take hours of study to explain other folks verses, you need to put the work in and then share it.
However Christs doing saved them He acted in behalf of Rom 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
brightfame52
Active Member
As long as you understand that obedience of Christ saves, His doing, and nothing done by the ones saved by Christs obedience.
dwight92070
Active Member
Water baptism is a PHYSICAL "picture" or depiction of what really happened SPIRITUALLY in a person's heart BEFORE THEY WERE BAPTIZED. The old man died and was buried and a new man was created and raised up to a new life. So how could a picture of something that saved you, actually be that salvation itself?
dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight - Actually I was asking Doug Brents to explain the three verses on "those who call on the name of the Lord will be saved", since apparently he doesn't believe they mean what they say.
Ray
Active Member
I have found most cults multiply non-biblical requirements for salvation. And they all advocate some form of works salvation.
AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2 In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].
3 Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God’s] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
These three verses close the door on all systems of works-salvation, for spiritually dead slaves who are oblivious to their incapacity are hardly candidates for success in any works-righteousness system.
The good news, the gospel, is that God imputes the righteousness of Jesus to us apart from our works. Salvation is through Jesus alone, not because of anything we have done.
The Apostle Paul warned us about it in the book of Philippines. He teaches that if anyone could be made right with God by virtue of accomplishment, that he would be that person! If Paul had failed to achieve acceptance with God through all of his inherited and earned virtues, then, he reasoned, no one could climb up to God on his own merits. That to mix the grace of God with the works of the flesh is unsound as far as salvation goes.
We can do good works after we are saved, but not to become saved. We can prove that we belong to Jesus by following His way (James 2:14–26) only because the Holy Spirit has changed our hearts after we accept Jesus as Savior.
So why do men fight so against the Bible’s teaching that man is dead in sin? Because it removes all possibility of works-salvation. That is, man’s merit, man’s work, man’s action is destroyed by the recognition of the truth of our state outside of Christ. All pride, all boasting, is excluded.
AND YOU [He made alive], when you were dead (slain) by [your] trespasses and sins
2 In which at one time you walked [habitually]. You were following the course and fashion of this world [were under the sway of the tendency of this present age], following the prince of the power of the air. [You were obedient to and under the control of] the [demon] spirit that still constantly works in the sons of disobedience [the careless, the rebellious, and the unbelieving, who go against the purposes of God].
3 Among these we as well as you once lived and conducted ourselves in the passions of our flesh [our behavior governed by our corrupt and sensual nature], obeying the impulses of the flesh and the thoughts of the mind [our cravings dictated by our senses and our dark imaginings]. We were then by nature children of [God’s] wrath and heirs of [His] indignation, like the rest of mankind.
Ephesians 2:1-3
These three verses close the door on all systems of works-salvation, for spiritually dead slaves who are oblivious to their incapacity are hardly candidates for success in any works-righteousness system.
The good news, the gospel, is that God imputes the righteousness of Jesus to us apart from our works. Salvation is through Jesus alone, not because of anything we have done.
The Apostle Paul warned us about it in the book of Philippines. He teaches that if anyone could be made right with God by virtue of accomplishment, that he would be that person! If Paul had failed to achieve acceptance with God through all of his inherited and earned virtues, then, he reasoned, no one could climb up to God on his own merits. That to mix the grace of God with the works of the flesh is unsound as far as salvation goes.
We can do good works after we are saved, but not to become saved. We can prove that we belong to Jesus by following His way (James 2:14–26) only because the Holy Spirit has changed our hearts after we accept Jesus as Savior.
So why do men fight so against the Bible’s teaching that man is dead in sin? Because it removes all possibility of works-salvation. That is, man’s merit, man’s work, man’s action is destroyed by the recognition of the truth of our state outside of Christ. All pride, all boasting, is excluded.
dwight92070
Active Member
The same could be said of communion. It is a PHYSICAL depiction or picture of what really happened SPIRITUALLY in a person's heart BEFORE THEY TOOK THE BREAD AND THE JUICE OR WINE. They believed that His body was sacrificed and His blood was shed for the forgiveness of their sins. So the picture (taking communion) doesn't forgive your sins, but what it represents, the sacrifice of Jesus' body and the shedding of His blood, DOES forgive your sins.
Since we still sin, although we don't want to, it is necessary for us to regularly take communion to remind us of what He did to secure our forgiveness.
Since we still sin, although we don't want to, it is necessary for us to regularly take communion to remind us of what He did to secure our forgiveness.
Doug Brents
Active Member
LOL, As long as you understand that we do not receive the salvation provided by Christ until we obey.
Doug Brents
Active Member
This last paragraph is almost true. Salvation is indeed through Jesus alone, and not because of anything we have done or can do. But it is not imputed to us apart from anything we must do. Rom 10:9-10 says that there is a physical action that is required before salvation is received: confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth. That means that there most certainly is at least one action that man must perform to receive salvation. But that is not the only condition placed upon our reception of Jesus' gift.
His point is that the actions that would be deemed meritorious ("good works", works of the Law, fruits of the Spirit, etc.) can never be enough to earn salvation. This cannot be taken as saying that there is no action necessary to receive salvation, as that would be in contradiction with Rom 10:9-10.
Eph 2:8-9 places the living faith described by James (James 2:14-26) before salvation is received. That living faith must precede our reception of salvation, because living faith is the conduit through which we receive salvation.
Those of us who advocate for the proper understanding of how salvation is received do not dispute that man is dead in sin. Nor do we dispute (at least I do not) that there is no action any man can perform that will make us deserving of salvation. But Scripture is very clear that there are several actions that are required by God before He applies the gift of salvation that was purchased by Jesus on the cross. To ignore those actions is to ignore the Holy Spirit's statement that Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey Him (Heb 5:9), not just those who give intellectual assent to the truth of the Gospel.
dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight - When Paul speaks of being spiritually dead, he recognizes that that does not mean the spiritually dead person cannot repent and believe. The father of the prodigal son said that his son was dead, yet the prodigal was capable of repenting and returning to his father. Spiritually dead people DO MANY THINGS - they are not incapable of doing anything. Spiritually dead is a metaphor for the lost person. They CAN DO one work that pleases God, the same work that we ALL must do to please God:
John 6:29 "Jesus ... said, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." Jesus knew and we know from Romans 4:5 that believing God is NOT really a work. Jesus was using a metaphor here as well - speaking figuratively. Repenting and believing are spiritual inward "works" of the heart, not outward physical works.
dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight - The only required commandment for us to obey and be saved is "Repent and believe in the gospel."
dwight92070
Active Member
Dwight - Yes, those who obey by "Repenting and believing" will be saved.
Our salvation is not a combination of our faith in Christ plus our good works. Salvation and justification come through God’s grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats false, one cant obey unless they have been saved. A lost man cannot obey lol, he lost
brightfame52
Active Member
One is Justified before God by Jesus Death/blood prior to them believing. Rom 5:9
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Ahh, so Rom 10:9-10 is not Scripture? Or is it just not relevant to you because you choose to ignore it?
No, repent and believe are not the only things Scripture says lead to our reception of salvation.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Show me in Scripture where "faith alone" or "faith only" can be found.
Doug Brents
Active Member
If that were so, then God would not have commanded lost men to search for Him, and find Him, and obey Him. Adam was lost (spiritually dead) the instant he touched the Tree of Knowledge, yet he went on to live 900+ more years. The lost can obey God.
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