"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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brightfame52
Active Member
Yes we are impotent, powerless, incapable to do anything that would recommend us to God. Thats why Jesus said no man can come to me in and of himself, cant come, means powerless, without strength, incapable etc. Read the story of the impotent man.
It means:
- Helpless Sinners: It means we were unable to change our sinful condition or reconcile ourselves to God.
- The Context of Salvation: Romans 5:6 states, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly," emphasizing that salvation is a gift from God, not earned through our own strength.
brightfame52
Active Member
They weren't His real disciples. They followed Him for food or miracles. They were not true believers at all.
Just like these believers were not true believers Jn 2 23-25
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,
25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.
brightfame52
Active Member
Doug Brents
Active Member
I'm sorry about that. I thought I was speaking to an adult with a firm enough knowledge of Scripture to find the events I referenced?
Here you go:
That is not what "without strength" is referring to. God would never call us to do something we are completely incapable of doing. We are "without strength" to pay for the car. We are not "without strength" to make it to the dealership.
Naaman was "without strength" to cure leprosy, but he was not "without strength" to dip in Jordan. (2 Kings 5)
The widow was "without strength" to provide food through the famine, but she was not "without strength" to give her last bite to the prophet. (1 Kings 17:7-16)
The widow was "without strength" to pay her late husband's debts and save her son, but she was not "without strength" to borrow jars and pour oil into them. (2 Kings 4:1-7)
Israel was "without strength" to tear down the walls of Jericho, but they were not "without strength" to march around the city. (Joshua 6:1-21)
We are "without strength" to rid ourselves of the stain of sin, but we are not "without strength" to turn to God (repent)(Acts 3:19), verbally and publicly confess our belief that Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and to surrender to God in baptism so that He will cleanse our sins, and claim us as His own (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, John 3:3-5).
Doug Brents
Active Member
We are powerless unless Jesus draws us to Himself. And when Jesus was lifted up (crucified), He drew ALL MEN to Himself. This means that He made it so that anyone who chooses to trust in Him can receive His forgiveness.
Doug Brents
Active Member
That doesn't matter. It does not matter at all that they were not "true believers". What matters is that Scripture says they were disciples, learners, followers. For the time that they followed Him, they were His followers. The fact that they turned back is beside the point.
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the New Birth, the commencement of a new life
brightfame52
Active Member
It matters a lot
Let me rephrase that to be honest and truthful about what we have. We have some very good copies of the original texts of which most are very old and very close timewise to the originals. There are two major sources being used to translate from the Greek texts into the English. I won't bother to go into those as such, only to note that one, called the Textus Receptus which is a series of Greek New Testament texts that served as the foundational text for many Reformation-era Bible translations, including the King James Version.
Which the Greek texts or the translation of those texts are most likely, if at all, preserved by God. If you believe that God has preserved something, do you think He preserved an English translation but not the Greek text from which it was translated? If so, with all due respect to you and your love of God, that is some really weird thinking. We have very good confirmation that the original texts were by the hand of apostles and prophets the word received by divine revelation through the Holy Spirit. We have no such confirmation that any of the copies or any of the translations have been produced at the divine direction of the Holy Spirit. I have some thoughts of my own in that regard, but I will just leave it there for now.
I will come back and reply to the rest of your post later -- perhaps tomorrow.
Only to one holding to the TULIP manifesto.
@Doug Brents
Enough for now.
That was a worldly low blow, but, what should I expect from men who seek to share glory with God, as though they are not what the scriptures said that they are~wicked and full of pride from our mother's womb~at enmity against God at every step of our walk.
In each and every case you are presenting ~ these folks are showing "the fruits of " regeneration, not the means thereof! Naaman, the widow, and Israel of old.
Concerning Acts 2:38, we explained this above already:
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
The like figure.
There are two figures or pictures here – the ark in the previous verse, baptism in this verse. A figure is a symbolic picture representing something in reality (Romans 5:14; Heb 9:9). The adjective like indicates the figure of baptism is similar to another figure in context. The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two things being considered. Noah’s ark and water baptism are two figures: both are a picture of salvation in Christ. This verse about baptism is the most definitive verse in the entire Bible about this ordinance.Whereunto even baptism.
Having introduced Noah and the ark for several reasons, Peter applied its figure to baptism. To this point in I Peter 3:18-22, no reader could know where he was going until these words.Doth also now save us.
The adverb also in this first clause further confirms at least two figures are being considered. The ark literally saved from water; Jesus literally saved His elect from the second death. The ark figuratively saved by figuring Jesus; baptism figuratively saves by figuring Jesus. How does baptism save? It saves figuratively, because baptism has been defined as a figure. There is real salvation in Jesus Christ’s resurrection mentioned in this verse (Rom 4:25). Baptism pictures that resurrection in a figure by its burial and rising again from water. There is no real saving efficacy, power, value in baptism, for the next clause confirms it. When the Bible says baptism washes away sins (Acts 22:16), it only does so figuratively. A good conscience answering God in baptism is evidence of eternal life (Mark 16:16). The will and works of man are entirely rejected as having any role in eternal life whatsoever.Not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.
A very damning and destructive heresy in church history is the premise that baptism saves. Once you accept this premise for your reasoning, then you will corrupt much more truth. Since water may not be available for an immersion, you will invent sprinkling or pouring. Since many died in infancy, heretics comforted mothers by baptizing their babies, and the consistent Presbyterians doing this will also stuff the Lord’s Supper in their little mouths. Since infants miscarry, and they hold to original sin, they also use intrauterine baptism. Since Campbellites baptize believers, they deny original sin for the age of accountability. Since Mormons require a Mormon baptism, they invented baptism for dead relatives. Baptismal regeneration or salvation is a terrible lie that has corrupted “Christianity.” Modern translations and commentators show a profane perversity by corrupting this point. They must at all costs maintain the RCC heresy and premise that baptism saves the soul. Therefore, when they find God denying their profanity, they alter His words like in Eden. They change the words filth of the flesh … to … dirt of the body in words or meaning. The terms here define, demand, and prove design of water baptism – no means of salvation. Water baptism does not remove or take away sins or sin nature in any literal or real way. This jewel of a text should be memorized by every Baptist child to protect against heresy. Baptism does not put away sin, sins, or sin nature, and any thought to the contrary is heresy. Baptism only saves figuratively, which is the premise on which this entire verse is built. Baptism is by those with good consciences, which can only come after regeneration! Putting away sins was by the finished work of Christ (John 19:30; Heb 1:3; 10:10-14). Man’s will or works, even righteous works, are rejected (Tit 3:5; Jn 1:13; Rom 9:15-16).But the answer of a good conscience toward God.
The terms here define, demand, and prove the subject of baptism – a regenerated believer. The issue at stake in salvation is a conscience understanding guilt and forgiveness of sin. Water baptism is the answer of that good conscience to God for sending Jesus Christ for it. Baptism is not a bad conscience asking for God to save it by water for it to become good. Baptism is the individual ordinance of a person thanking God for saving by Jesus’ death.By the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Proper baptism, burial and resurrection in water, is a figurative picture of Jesus’ resurrection. The connection here defines, demands, and proves the mode of water baptism – immersion. Only baptism by immersion has a figure or picture of any kind at all of body resurrection. The life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is what saves us legally before God.Enough for now.
brightfame52
Active Member
Red, there is not a credible person of scriptural knowledge that agrees with you on the interpretation of that verse.
Every time that you give your explanation of Acts 2:38 you show that you really do not care what Peter by the power of the Holy Spirit actually says and means, since doing so would destroy your entire version of soteriology.
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