"Works Salvation"

[Red Baker]

@Seabass

1) you are very inconsistent with your interpretation of Jn 3. You have no problem with Spirit meaning literal Spirit for that fits within your theological bias. Yet you cannot have water meaning literal water for that does not fit your narrative. Therefore you must make water mean something other than literal water.....and that is not based on anything contextual but simply based on your theological bias against the necessity of water baptism and nothing more.

Later tomorrow, I have business to do until then.

 

[brightfame52]

That is not what "without strength" is referring to. God would never call us to do something we are completely incapable of doing. We are "without strength" to pay for the car. We are not "without strength" to make it to the dealership.

Yes we are impotent, powerless, incapable to do anything that would recommend us to God. Thats why Jesus said no man can come to me in and of himself, cant come, means powerless, without strength, incapable etc. Read the story of the impotent man.

It means:

• Helpless Sinners: It means we were unable to change our sinful condition or reconcile ourselves to God.
• The Context of Salvation: Romans 5:6 states, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly," emphasizing that salvation is a gift from God, not earned through our own strength.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't say, nor did I, that they were Apostles. But Scripture does say that they were disciples.

They weren't His real disciples. They followed Him for food or miracles. They were not true believers at all.

Just like these believers were not true believers Jn 2 23-25

23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,

25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

 

[brightfame52]

It means we were weak, that we were feeble. It does not mean we were totally incapable of anything or paralyzed.

Actually it does mean just that

 

[Doug Brents]

Is this the best you can do Doug? Provide scriptures to support your doctrine, worldly illustration does not qualify for truth. We can argue all day back and forth using such things and get nowhere.

I'm sorry about that. I thought I was speaking to an adult with a firm enough knowledge of Scripture to find the events I referenced?

Here you go:
That is not what "without strength" is referring to. God would never call us to do something we are completely incapable of doing. We are "without strength" to pay for the car. We are not "without strength" to make it to the dealership.
Naaman was "without strength" to cure leprosy, but he was not "without strength" to dip in Jordan. (2 Kings 5)
The widow was "without strength" to provide food through the famine, but she was not "without strength" to give her last bite to the prophet. (1 Kings 17:7-16)
The widow was "without strength" to pay her late husband's debts and save her son, but she was not "without strength" to borrow jars and pour oil into them. (2 Kings 4:1-7)
Israel was "without strength" to tear down the walls of Jericho, but they were not "without strength" to march around the city. (Joshua 6:1-21)
We are "without strength" to rid ourselves of the stain of sin, but we are not "without strength" to turn to God (repent)(Acts 3:19), verbally and publicly confess our belief that Jesus is Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and to surrender to God in baptism so that He will cleanse our sins, and claim us as His own (Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Mark 16:16, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:26-27, John 3:3-5).

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes we are impotent, powerless, incapable to do anything that would recommend us to God. Thats why Jesus said no man can come to me in and of himself, cant come, means powerless, without strength, incapable etc. Read the story of the impotent man.

It means:

• Helpless Sinners: It means we were unable to change our sinful condition or reconcile ourselves to God.
• The Context of Salvation: Romans 5:6 states, "For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly," emphasizing that salvation is a gift from God, not earned through our own strength.

We are powerless unless Jesus draws us to Himself. And when Jesus was lifted up (crucified), He drew ALL MEN to Himself. This means that He made it so that anyone who chooses to trust in Him can receive His forgiveness.

 

[Doug Brents]

They weren't His real disciples. They followed Him for food or miracles. They were not true believers at all.

That doesn't matter. It does not matter at all that they were not "true believers". What matters is that Scripture says they were disciples, learners, followers. For the time that they followed Him, they were His followers. The fact that they turned back is beside the point.

 

[brightfame52]

We are powerless unless Jesus draws us to Himself.

Thats the New Birth, the commencement of a new life

 

[brightfame52]

That doesn't matter.

It matters a lot

 

[Jim]

@Jim

Neither you, me, or any other man has ever seen the original and neither do we need to do so, we have the word of God in own very own tongue given to us by God and preserved just as he first gave it to Moses, and from him down to John.

Let me rephrase that to be honest and truthful about what we have. We have some very good copies of the original texts of which most are very old and very close timewise to the originals. There are two major sources being used to translate from the Greek texts into the English. I won't bother to go into those as such, only to note that one, called the Textus Receptus which is a series of Greek New Testament texts that served as the foundational text for many Reformation-era Bible translations, including the King James Version.

Which the Greek texts or the translation of those texts are most likely, if at all, preserved by God. If you believe that God has preserved something, do you think He preserved an English translation but not the Greek text from which it was translated? If so, with all due respect to you and your love of God, that is some really weird thinking. We have very good confirmation that the original texts were by the hand of apostles and prophets the word received by divine revelation through the Holy Spirit. We have no such confirmation that any of the copies or any of the translations have been produced at the divine direction of the Holy Spirit. I have some thoughts of my own in that regard, but I will just leave it there for now.

I will come back and reply to the rest of your post later -- perhaps tomorrow.

 

[Jay]

Salvation works for me. Best thing that ever happened to me.