"Works Salvation"

[Jim]

The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion justly and explicitly drawn from Scripture. The question, therefore, is: Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace? Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works. Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

I am not sure what you intend there in that post. However, salvation is by the grace of God and not by man's works OF THE LAW. That does not preclude man's doing something, such as believing in God. God's grace does not preclude God's setting conditions for His grace.

 

[Rowan]

I am not sure what you intend there in that post. However, salvation is by the grace of God and not by man's works OF THE LAW. That does not preclude man's doing something, such as believing in God. God's grace does not preclude God's setting conditions for His grace.

Traditional works (circumcision, dietary laws, sacrifices) originate in human effort attempting to meet God’s standards. In contrast, belief is God-centered from origin to outcome. As Jesus later states, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Faith itself is a divine gift (Ephesians 2:8-9) so that no boasting remains. Thus John 6:29 shifts the focus from merit-earning labor to Spirit-wrought dependence.

The “work” required—belief—centers on a living Christ. Multiple independent lines of historical evidence verify the resurrection: enemy admission of the empty tomb, early proclamation in Jerusalem, transformation of skeptics like James and Paul, and willingness of eyewitnesses to face martyrdom. Faith, therefore, anchors in objective reality, not wishful thinking.

 

[Doug Brents]

The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion justly and explicitly drawn from Scripture. The question, therefore, is: Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace? Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works. Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

May I pose a couple of questions for you from the OT, to help you clarify your understanding of grace, faith, and works.
Think back to, or go and reread, the stories of the widow who gave her last cake of bread to the prophet, and of the widow who poured oil from her jar to save the son who was going to be sold to pay her late husband's debts, and of the destruction of the walls of Jericho (there are many more stories like this, but these will get us started).

In each of these stories, was the result (eating from the same bit of flour and oil for the rest of the famine, selling the additional oil to pay the debts, the fall of the walls of Jericho) caused by the grace of God? or by the works of man (or woman)?

In each of these stories, was there a conditional action that the person/people involved were required to perform for the grace of God to bring about the result?

In each of these stories, did the action performed by the person/people involved "earn", "merit", or "deserve" the resulting grace?

There you have the basis for understanding faith, grace, and works.
When God promises something (salvation, sustenance, redemption of debt, conquering the Land, etc.), He almost always places a condition upon the receipt of that gift (grace). If the condition is met, then the grace is received. If the condition is not met, then the grace is not received.

 

[Jim]

Traditional works (circumcision, dietary laws, sacrifices) originate in human effort attempting to meet God’s standards. In contrast, belief is God-centered from origin to outcome. As Jesus later states, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Faith itself is a divine gift (Ephesians 2:8-9) so that no boasting remains. Thus John 6:29 shifts the focus from merit-earning labor to Spirit-wrought dependence.

The “work” required—belief—centers on a living Christ. Multiple independent lines of historical evidence verify the resurrection: enemy admission of the empty tomb, early proclamation in Jerusalem, transformation of skeptics like James and Paul, and willingness of eyewitnesses to face martyrdom. Faith, therefore, anchors in objective reality, not wishful thinking.

No, faith is not a gift. And Ephesians 2:8-9 says no such thing. It can take a lot of hard work to study, comprehend and understand the word about Christ, from which faith comes (Rom 10:17).

 

[Doug Brents]

Traditional works (circumcision, dietary laws, sacrifices) originate in human effort attempting to meet God’s standards.

If that were true, then man would have been the one who wrote the Law. But the Law came from God, not man.

In contrast, belief is God-centered from origin to outcome. As Jesus later states, “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44). Faith itself is a divine gift (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Faith is not the gift in Eph 2:8-9. Salvation is the gift. Faith is the conduit through which salvation comes to us.

so that no boasting remains. Thus John 6:29 shifts the focus from merit-earning labor to Spirit-wrought dependence.

The “work” required—belief—centers on a living Christ. Multiple independent lines of historical evidence verify the resurrection: enemy admission of the empty tomb, early proclamation in Jerusalem, transformation of skeptics like James and Paul, and willingness of eyewitnesses to face martyrdom. Faith, therefore, anchors in objective reality, not wishful thinking.

Certainly our belief centers upon Christ. But what does "belief" mean? Is it simply a mental exercise? Something that only takes place within your head? Intellectual assent?
No, each and every place where "belief" is mentioned in reference to salvation, the Greek word is "pistis" (or a derivative thereof) which means "faith". And faith is the actions we take in response to intellectual assent (James 2:14-26). Without action, the "faith" you think you have is dead, worthless, ineffective, and meaningless. A dead faith cannot bring life to you from God.

 

[brightfame52]

Does salvation by faith contradict salvation by grace?

Actually it doesnt, both equate to salvation by Christ

Does salvation by faith imply, in some subtle way, salvation by works

Yes when Faith is presented to be a condition the person must have or perform before God saves you.

Scripture itself provides a clear answer: “By faith” is not “by works” but is “by grace.”

Yes when faith isnt a imposed condition, but a product of Grace attending Salvation.

 

[Angelo]

Paul warned us about: “We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know” 1 Corinthians 8:1–2

When we make knowledge an end in itself, it undermines the very purpose for which it was intended. “But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith” 1 Timothy 1:5

Jesus said, “By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another” John 13:35

 

[Rowan]

The key lies in recognizing that salvation is initiated by God's grace and sustained through the believer's faithful response.

Salvation is by grace through faith, not by works of the law Ephesians 2:8-9. The law serves as a guide but cannot save Romans 3:20

Most Christian denominations agree that salvation is a gift from God, received through faith in Jesus Christ, not by adherence to the law Galatians 2:16

The law reveals sin but does not provide salvation Romans 7:7. It points to the need for a savior Galatians 3:24

Salvation is credited by faith, not by keeping the law Romans 4:5. Works are a result of salvation, not the means to it James 2:26

Under the New Covenant, salvation is through Christ’s sacrifice, not law-keeping Hebrews 10:10. The law is fulfilled in Christ Matthew 5:17

Believers are called to obey God’s commands out of gratitude for salvation, not to earn it Titus 2:11-12

 

[Seabass]

Simple -

1) Ignorantly believing that you can EARN your salvation, and forgiveness/cleansing from SIN by performing what you think are "Good works" that will impress God with what you think is your "personal righteousness".

2) There isn't any. Anything to the contrary is nothing but "THEOLOGY", which is like noses - everybody's got one.

3) Nope - it was obedience through FAITH on God's Word. Bottom line Salvation is BY FAITH in the SIN OFFERING performed by Jesus on the cross. (Isa 53:10). Faith IS Heb 11:1. The only SOURCE of Faith is Rom 10:17. Biblical FAITH wil of its intrinsic nature result in actual GOOD WORKS which are the RESULT OF, and not the Cause of Salvathin / being Born Again of the Holy SPirit.

--so obedience to God's will is not a work of merit done to earn salvation....meaning all works are not the same, Therefore those that make references to "works salvation" need to identify what type of work they are referencing.

--the cause of Noah's salvation was a combination of God's grace and Noah's obedience, for without either salvation would have been impossible for Noah.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation, becoming a believer is a Creation so how can it be synergistic ? 2 Cor 5:17

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 2:10

10 For we[believers] are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Isa 43:7

Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if a person believes they had a part in their becoming a christian, a believer, they are attempting to share the Glory that only belongs to God.

 

[Begotten]

James and Paul approached the topic of salvation from different directions; as a result, they have been accused of contradicting one another.

“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” James 2:24

For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law” Romans 3:28

Does James contradict Paul by teaching that salvation can be earned?

Let's consider their different audiences and purposes for writing. Paul’s audience was inclined to think their good works earned their salvation; James’ audience was inclined to think their good works were unnecessary after salvation. Paul was addressing the kind of good works that precede salvation; James was addressing the kind of good works that result from salvation.

While Paul is separating faith from works to demonstrate that salvation cannot be earned, James is connecting faith and works to demonstrate that it is impossible for faith to exist without works. Both writers agree that salvation is a free gift from God embraced by faith. They also agree that genuine faith will result in good works.

 

[Seabass]

Becoming a new creature is not something that happens unconditionally, capriciously or for some unknown reason.

"If any man be in Christ he is a new creature" and being "in Christ" takes obedience on the part of man in submitting to baptism:

Rom 6:4: "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

This newness of life, a new creation only happens after one has obediently obey the gospel (2 Thess 1:8) in baptism whereby the old man of sin dies, is buried and raised to then walk in newness of life.

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Being a new creature requires a putting off and a putting on:


Col 3:10: "and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator."
Eph 4:24: "and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

The verb "put' being middle voice showing man's active involvement...'you put on" or "you have clothed yourselves"

Eph 4:22 "That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;"

AI:
"The Greek verb ἀποθέσθαι (apothesthai) is an aorist infinitive in a context that functions as an imperative/command: believers are instructed to actively lay it aside in reference to their former conduct."

• "Put Off" (ἀποθέσθαι - apothesthai): Used in verse 22, this aorist infinitive functions as a command to actively and decisively discard the former way of life. The "old self" is described as being corrupted by "deceitful desires".
• "Be Renewed" (ἀνανεοῦσθαι - ananeousthai): In contrast to the aorist "put off," verse 23 uses a present passive infinitive, indicating a continuous, ongoing process of renewal in the "spirit of your minds".
• "Put On" (ἐνδύσασθαι - endysasthai): Used in verse 24, this aorist infinitive implies a definitive "clothing" oneself with the new nature, which is created by God after His likeness in true righteousness and holiness

Col 3:8 "But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth."
AI "The verb for "put them all away" is ἀπόθεσθε (apothesthe) — a clear aorist imperative (command) meaning "put off" or "get rid of."

Paul teaches a balance:

• Definitive ("you have put off" the old self through union with Christ — positional reality, e.g., Col 3:9; Rom 6:6).
• Progressive/ongoing (actively "put off" its practices daily through the Spirit's power and our obedience — Eph 4:22; Col 3:8).

"The new self isn't automatic in daily experience; believers are commanded to cooperate with God's work by rejecting the old and embracing the new."

"This is synergistic in practice (God works, we work with Him – Phil 2:12-13: "work out your own salvation... for it is God who works in you")"

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Paul is not saying man can put off/put on and become a new creature in and of himself apart from God. God creates the new creature but does so only to those that obey His will. Humans have a role:

Acts 2:38 God commanded them to repent and be baptized for remission of sins. God gave them the instructions, the means on how to put off/put on and become a new creature by repenting and being baptized. They are then told to "save yourselves". They would not save themselves by themselves but save themselves in the sense in doing what God commanded them. They had a role in their own salvation.

God graciously gave them a way to walk in newness of life as a new creature, it was up to them to do as God's grace required.
It would therefore be impossible for them to become a new creature in Christ apart from God's grace and their obedience to God's will. It takes BOTH God's grace and man's obedience.

Submitting to God's will in putting off/putting on is man only doing what is his duty to do, it is nothing to boast about...Lk 17:10:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

 

[brightfame52]

Becoming a new creature is not something that happens unconditionally,

Yes it does, a new creation is solely at the discretion and will of the Creator. He is creating out of nothing

 

[brightfame52]

so obedience to God's will is not a work of merit done to earn salvation..

It is a work if what you did resulted in your salvation, then it was a wage paid, a reward, a paycheck for your effort, a debt paid

 

[Speculator]

Faith can be a condition for man to meet without being a meritorious cause or ground of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Faith can be a condition for man to meet without being a meritorious cause or ground of salvation.

No it cant. If you make it a condition, rather than a Gift given by Grace, it defaults to a meritorious ground of salvation

 

[Seabass]

It is a work if what you did resulted in your salvation, then it was a wage paid, a reward, a paycheck for your effort, a debt paid

Works of merit and obedience are two totally different things. No one's obedience earned them God's grace.

Did Noah's obedient work in building the ark, as COMMANDED by God, merit his salvation from the flood?

No,

His salvation was by God's grace and his obedience.,,without both Noah would not have been saved from the flood.

If anyone wants to try and call Noah's obedience a work of merit then they are ripping grace out of the narrative, for they then have God owing Noah salvation from the flood as a result of Noah's 'meritorious work' in building the ark.


Was Noah's work a work of merit done to earn his salvation from the flood?

 

[brightfame52]

Works of merit and obedience are two totally different things.

I agree. Works of obedience are the results of having been saved and made a new creation, Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them

However works of obedience or conditions we do to gain salvation are wages, reward, meritorious , and quite frankly evil

 

[Harmony]

Following Calvin is works salvation

John Calvin said: Good Works Manifest True Saving Faith​

John Calvin's teachings emphasize that good works are a necessary complement of true faith and are integral to the process of salvation. Calvin's view is that justification by faith alone is not sufficient without the accompanying good works. He argues that true faith, which is characterized by a relationship with God, must be accompanied by good works, which are the outworking of that faith. Calvin's doctrine of justification by faith is often critiqued for making salvation too easy to receive, but he responds by asserting that faith and good works must be inseparable. Calvin's teachings continue to influence Christian thought and practice regarding the relationship between faith and good works in the context of salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

John Calvin said: Good Works Manifest True Saving Faith

Thats True. That means the good works you do after you have been saved by grace. The problem with religion is that have turned works into a condition to get saved, thats evil, and to rely on your works to stay saved is just as evil