Tulip is an abomination to the gospel of God's grace.
"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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brightfame52
Active Member
Doug Brents
Active Member
Again, you are interpreting that passage independent from the rest of Scripture. It cannot mean that there are no actions necessary to receive salvation, because Rom 10:9-10 clearly and explicitly states that there is at least one physical action that results in the reception of salvation.
See your attitude toward God? Not good friend.
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brightfame52
Active Member
Of course you'll say that being under deception
Doug Brents
Active Member
As I have asked, demonstrate to me how Rom 10:9-10 does not disprove your interpretation of Eph 2:8-9. If you can, I will gladly change my views.
brightfame52
Active Member
You deceived to believe a lie. Salvation is of Grace apart from works.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Read the KJV or NKJV, then you will get the Word more as it was supposed to be written. Westcott and Hort, two spiritualists and believers in Darwin translated the Alexandrian codex and all these modern versions came from it. That's what you are reading, brother.
No, Jesus came to take away our sin (lawlessness), not just cover it up as you are implying by "When God looks at me, He does not see my filth. he sees his son." That is a doctrine straight out of the beginning of the Reformation. Do you want to know what Jesus thinks of their teachings? Revelation 3:1 "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." He's talking about their doctrines; one of which you just quoted!
Do you think it so out of God's power to recreate your nature? EG, I literally felt the sin in my nature lift out of me. It was a heaviness. And when it left I was free from all desire to break a commandment of the flesh. Those are sins unto death that we inherited from Adam's willful sin unto death he committed. This is how Jesus gives us eternal life. EG, do you really think you can cross through the gates of heaven full of sin? NO! Only the righteous and holy may enter. not just a facsimile taught by John Calvin. He taught the TULIP false doctrine, and especially the T of total depravity you believe. How can you believe that garbage, E?
Listen to me. If you are dealing with a particular sin that you think the Father cannot see, which is not true - the Father sees all - this is what I want you to do. Confess it to the Father and tell Him that you've tried to stop but you can't. (This is what I did and it worked) Then tell Him that you don't even want to stop because you love your sin. That is complete honesty/integrity of heart. But you know you also want to go to heaven, so if He wants you to stop He is the one that must take that desire out of you and create a new nature within you. You are not in control of your nature, the Author and Finisher of your faith is. And He will remove all desire to commit a sin unto death. You will then actually, not just "accounted" as those in the Old Testament who didn't have Jesus.
Then Jesus will start maturing all the fruit of the Spirit which produce the sins of 2 Peter 1:5-7. Read the rest of that section through verse 11. When all the fruit that produce those minor sins of the flesh are mature, YOU WILL NEVER STUMBLE. That is holiness and perfection my friend. Revelation 22:11.
Note what the gospel is. Romans 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
Sins unto death and sins not unto death are the two faiths to perfection - then you are finished.
Doug Brents
Active Member
PROVE IT. Don't just repeat the same thing over and over with no proof; demonstrate your conviction with Scripture.
brightfame52
Active Member
Im sorry, you cant have Truth proved to you at this time.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yes, you are sorry, and you have failed the test.
brightfame52
Active Member
You under strong delusion to believe a lie. Salvation by works
Seabass
Active Member
The entire NT puts obedience before salvation...this is why there is no NT gospel example of a disobedient person living in defiance to God's will being saved. Rom 10:3 Paul lamented that his brethren in the fesh, the Jews. were lost because they would not submit (obey) the righteousness of God.
Jn 3:16 puts obedience in believing BEFORE having everlasting life and the unbelieving (disobedient) are condemned already not saved already BEFORE that believe,
DavidTree
Active Member
"not of works lest any man should boast"
Look at me everyone, i was obedient and therefore i am saved.
My obedience is better then your obedience
Grace not needed = just obey
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Salvation precedes obedience because no one was obedient ENOUGH in order to be saved in the first place.
just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the One Man the many will be made righteous. - Romans 5:19
@Seabass = Which obedience saves us???
a.) your own obedience
b.) the obedience of CHRIST
c.) (a) before (b)
d.) both a & b
e.) Both B and a
brightfame52
Active Member
@Seabass
Thats absolutely false, obedience is the fruit of salvation. Obedience is the beginning of the Christian Life, before that, we are naturally children of obedience, by a spirit of disobedience operating within us Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Are you suggesting we can change our nature and become obedient ?
Thats absolutely false, obedience is the fruit of salvation. Obedience is the beginning of the Christian Life, before that, we are naturally children of obedience, by a spirit of disobedience operating within us Eph 2:2-3
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Are you suggesting we can change our nature and become obedient ?
Seabass
Active Member
not of works refer to works of merit, not obedience. If the Jew could have kept the OT law perfectly sinless then his reward would have been of debt not of grace Rom 4:4. But no Jew could keep the law perfectly hence the OT law left the Jew unjustified as the Gentile Rom 3:9.
Since no one's obedience will be perfectly sinless then
1) obedience is nothing to boast about since it will be imperfect
2) grace is needed since lack of perfect obedience (sin) creates a gap between God and man hence grace is needed to bridge that gap.
Jesus gave a short lesson on obedience in Lk 17:8-10: even though the servant worked in the field all day his worked merited him nothing, it did not earn him a place at the table to eat but was told to make the Master's supper. On the other hand, the servant's obedience in working in the field did not obligated the Master to owe the servant anything...God does not owe man for man doing what he is supposed to be doing. Yet God will condemn man for NOT doing what he is supposed to do.
The lesson ends by Jesus saying "Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do." No one's OBEDIENCE will be perfect leaving the servant unprofitable and being unprofitable is nothing to boast about. Since no one's obedience will be sinlessly perfect, no one cannot say his obedience is better than another's obedience.
Noah was one who did all that was commanded him (Gen 6) but his salvation from the flood was still a matter of grace. Noah was not perfectly sinless. His obediene in building the ark earned him nothing but his obedience was necessary to receive God's grace in being saved from the flood. Disobedience in not building the ark would be sin and rejecting God's grace.
Without Christ's obedience in going to the cross salvation would not be available for anyone. But Christ did obey but that does not mean man has nothing to do in his own salvation. Without man's obedience salvation would also be impossible for it is the disobedient unrighteous that will be lost...Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.
Again, there is not a single example in the NT gospel of those who lived in disobedience, defiance of God's will that God unconditionally saved them anyway while they continued to live in disobedience to God's will.
Seabass
Active Member
not of works refer to works of merit, not obedience. If the Jew could have kept the OT law perfectly sinless then his reward would have been of debt not of grace Rom 4:4. But no Jew could keep the law perfectly hence the OT law left the Jew unjustified as the Gentile Rom 3:9.
Since no one's obedience will be perfectly sinless then
1) obedience is nothing to boast about since it will be imperfect
2) grace is needed since lack of perfect obedience (sin) creates a gap between God and man hence grace is needed to bridge that gap.
Jesus gave a short lesson on obedience in Lk 17:8-10: even though the servant worked in the field all day his worked merited him nothing, it did not earn him a place at the table to eat but was told to make the Master's supper. On the other hand, the servant's obedience in working in the field did not obligated the Master to owe the servant anything...God does not owe man for man doing what he is supposed to be doing. Yet God will condemn man for NOT doing what he is supposed to do.
The lesson ends by Jesus saying "Even so ye also, when ye shall have done all the things that are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants; we have done that which it was our duty to do." No one's OBEDIENCE will be perfect leaving the servant unprofitable and being unprofitable is nothing to boast about. Since no one's obedience will be sinlessly perfect, no one cannot say his obedience is better than another's obedience.
Noah was one who did all that was commanded him (Gen 6) but his salvation from the flood was still a matter of grace. Noah was not perfectly sinless. His obediene in building the ark earned him nothing but his obedience was necessary to receive God's grace in being saved from the flood. Disobedience in not building the ark would be sin and rejecting God's grace.
Without Christ's obedience in going to the cross salvation would not be available for anyone. But Christ did obey but that does not mean man has nothing to do in his own salvation. Without man's obedience salvation would also be impossible for it is the disobedient unrighteous that will be lost...Christ is the Author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.
Again, there is not a single example in the NT gospel of those who lived in disobedience, defiance of God's will that God unconditionally saved them anyway while they continued to live in disobedience to God's will.
Seabass
Active Member
man has the free will to choose to obey or not obey. Before becoming Christians, those in Ephesus chose to walk in sin, but upon hearing and believing the gospel presented to them by Paul they then converted and chose to live godly, righteous lives.
The word "nature" in this context does NOT have to do with how one is innately born but a habitual practice..they HABITUALLY walked in sin so long it became part of their nature. Paul says nothing about how they were innately born but how they chose to live, chose to walk in sin, chose to live their life in the lusts of the flesh.
Habitual Sin
In verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past.Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath.”
They Did It To Themselves
It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language, therefore, stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”
Are Infants by Nature Children of Wrath?
Does the Bible say that little babies are by nature born in sin?
christiancourier.com
What Is the Meaning of "By Nature" In Ephesians 2:3?
This article explores the interpretation of the phrase 'by nature' in Ephesians 2:3, discussing various viewpoints from theologians and examining how Paul used the term in other biblical passages.
christiancourier.com
DavidTree
Active Member
Which is why i ask everyone = 'which came first the chicken or the egg???'
Answer: Christ's Obedience SAVES us, when we are obedient to God's Calling us
"thru the Obedience of One Man, many will be made righteous"
Notice how the Holy Spirit does not include our obedience in Salvation but only CHRIST's in
this direct declaration.
Once God firmly establishes CHRIST's Obedience in the heart of the man/woman HE is calling, then our response is to obey the Father's Call to come to CHRIST
Yes or No?
brightfame52
Active Member
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