"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
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charismaticlady
Active Member
Revelation 3:
The Lukewarm Church
14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.” ’ ”
2 Every branch IN Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.
For me it was a miracle. I saw a vision and I heard God speak 8 sentences to me. They seared into me and I'll never forget what He said. And since then 100% of my prayers have been answered. I also felt the heaviness of sin leave my body, and with it went all desire to sin.
Those who are born again rightly divide the Word. Many don't.
Titus
Active Member
This passage proves me correct. The branch is IN Christ.
The lost were never IN Christ.
Only the saved are IN Christ.
What this passage proves is that those in Christ can become apostate and Jesus will remove that branch from Himself.
You will never be a branch if you were never born again. These are branches therefore they are saved.
This proves OSAS is error.
If you cannot back up your salvation story with how the gospel saves in the new testament...
Then I cannot have faith in your testimony.
I can only believe what the Bible tells me to believe.
The new testament gospel unto salvation is never salvation by miracles.
Not one person in the new testament was recorded as being saved that way.
Only one gospel. Only one plan of saving man.
No exceptions.
Romans 1:16
Yes, both equate. The point is that one cannot believe in God and not be faithful. To not be faithful means quite simply that one does not believe in God. One can believe God and not believe in God. One can believe God and simply choose to reject Him and all that He offers in the world to come. You may think that one would be irrational or quite stupid to do that, but there are a lot of irrational and frankly quite stupid people in the world.
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Selah
Active Member
Greetings Titus,
The way I understand OSAS is like this: It’s Christ Jesus who does the saving. It is Jesus our Savior who died on the Cross—just once. And His salvation is forEVER. He was crucified on that Cross one time for me and you and whoever will truly with all their heart and soul believe in Him. Now, the Bible tells us that we all fall short at times, but thank God, we can repent and ask our Father to forgive us, and He will. It’s a promise.
…s e l a h
Romans 3:23 (NKJV) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Psalms 103:12-14 (NKJV) 12 As far as the east is from the west, [So] far has He removed our transgressions from us. 13 As a father pities [his] children, [So] the LORD pities those who fear Him. 14 For He knows our frame; He remembers that we [are] dust.
Doug Brents
Active Member
According to Daniel's prophecy, when Jesus came the first time, during the time of the fourth kingdom (Rome), His Eternal Kingdom was established and would never cease. His Kingdom was established on Earth on Pentecost (at the latest).
Quite a few of the saints were resurrected when Jesus died, and entered into Jerusalem after He was resurrected.
Judgement has already been passed on them. They have not yet been imprisoned in Hell for eternity, but they have been sentenced.
@Titus
Do we contact the blood by the water of baptism? No way, we contact it by election of grace. We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We were placed in Him by grace alone, he being the head of the elect body, and given to him to be our surety, to secure eternal life for God's elect, by "his" life of faith and obedience. For Jesus Christ obeyed for us as a substitutionary sacrifice (Romans 5:19; Hebrews 1:3).
For the mercy of God is without human will or effort (John 1:13; Romans 9:15,16) Bible baptism is way too late in the order of things to work legally speaking. (John 5:24; Acts 8:37). Titus, we ask you: what would we do for all those who died before John and Peter began baptizing?
Let the greatest Bible text about baptism settle this matter once for all 1st Peter 3:21:
It denies baptismal regeneration by the words in parentheses TWO WAYS. A good conscience is one born again and instructed by grace (Hebrews 9:14). It also proves that baptism must be immersion to figure a resurrection. It also proves baptism cannot be of infants, for they must have a conscience.
This text has been corrupted three ways to destroy these three facts of truth. Baptismal regeneration is one of the greatest abominations ever created. It requires infant baptism, in case a young child might die without salvation. If you can’t stomach infant baptism, then you must deny original sin. If you don’t have enough water available, then sprinkling or pouring will do. If you have relatives who died without baptism, then get baptized for them.
What saith the text itself, in light of the testimony of the rest of Scripture?
We have Paul calling Jesus Lord by the Holy Ghost (Acts 22:8,10; See 1st Cor. 12:3). We have Paul praying and recognized by God, much like Cornelius (Acts 9:11). We have Ananias calling Paul brother, though a great persecutor (Acts 22:13). We have the writer of Hebrews teaching the most blood wise people on earth.
Therefore, Ananias spoke figuratively of baptism (1st Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-5). Legally it is what baptism figuratively shows forth...the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, is the only means of having our sins forgiven legally.
Peter is very clear as to what sense baptism saves us~it represents the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the "only means" of our free justification as nothing else could possibly represent.
Do we want the sound or sense of words (Nehemiah 8:8 )? Do we rightly divide (2nd Timothy 2:15). The scriptures teach Jesus washed us from our sins by His blood (Revelation 1:5: 5:9; Hebrews 9:12).
Do we contact the blood by the water of baptism? No way, we contact it by election of grace. We are chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. We were placed in Him by grace alone, he being the head of the elect body, and given to him to be our surety, to secure eternal life for God's elect, by "his" life of faith and obedience. For Jesus Christ obeyed for us as a substitutionary sacrifice (Romans 5:19; Hebrews 1:3).
For the mercy of God is without human will or effort (John 1:13; Romans 9:15,16) Bible baptism is way too late in the order of things to work legally speaking. (John 5:24; Acts 8:37). Titus, we ask you: what would we do for all those who died before John and Peter began baptizing?
Let the greatest Bible text about baptism settle this matter once for all 1st Peter 3:21:
It denies baptismal regeneration by the words in parentheses TWO WAYS. A good conscience is one born again and instructed by grace (Hebrews 9:14). It also proves that baptism must be immersion to figure a resurrection. It also proves baptism cannot be of infants, for they must have a conscience.
This text has been corrupted three ways to destroy these three facts of truth. Baptismal regeneration is one of the greatest abominations ever created. It requires infant baptism, in case a young child might die without salvation. If you can’t stomach infant baptism, then you must deny original sin. If you don’t have enough water available, then sprinkling or pouring will do. If you have relatives who died without baptism, then get baptized for them.
What saith the text itself, in light of the testimony of the rest of Scripture?
We have Paul calling Jesus Lord by the Holy Ghost (Acts 22:8,10; See 1st Cor. 12:3). We have Paul praying and recognized by God, much like Cornelius (Acts 9:11). We have Ananias calling Paul brother, though a great persecutor (Acts 22:13). We have the writer of Hebrews teaching the most blood wise people on earth.
Therefore, Ananias spoke figuratively of baptism (1st Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-5). Legally it is what baptism figuratively shows forth...the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, is the only means of having our sins forgiven legally.
1 Peter 3:21
“The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:”Peter is very clear as to what sense baptism saves us~it represents the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the "only means" of our free justification as nothing else could possibly represent.
charismaticlady
Active Member
I agree. Though we do not have the desire to sin, we still have free will and can be talked back into sin by our choices of teachers and friends. 2 Peter 2:18-22
The vision was of my sin. I repented. It was then that Jesus spoke the 8 sentences and removed the desire to sin out of my nature. Where I before had a sin nature, I was now clean.
Check your heart, Titus.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
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We are saved by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, but we were not saved at the time of the resurrection of Christ. The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ was the was payment for the sins of the world. It was a payment due for the OT Saints and a payment for the dues yet to be owed for the NT saints. You are free to accept the payment Jesus made or you can choose to make the payment yourself, which is eternal condemnation. You accept the payment Jesus made in your stead when you hear the gospel and have the faith to repent and be baptized. At that time, your sins are forgiven, and you are given the gift, the indwelling, of Holy Spirit, i.e., you have been born again, regenerated - saved.
We are not saved by any representation. We are saved in the doing of what represents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the same message of a representation of a death burial and resurrection as is presented in Romans 6:3-4 and in Colossians 2:11:13. Again it is in the doing of the representation that salvation is obtained.
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brightfame52
Active Member
Doug Brents
Active Member
It may be contrary to your understanding of grace, but it is not contrary to the Biblical description of grace.
@Jim
The wages of sin is death, which God’s justice pays; but Jesus died (Romans 6:23). Only the undefiled enter heaven, so He lived faultlessly for us (Jude 1:24-25). Jesus was necessary as a surety, for the justice of God must surely be paid (Romans 3:26). He is the Testator, for it was by His death that He put the covenant in force (Hebrews 9:15). We see Him under the strain of the Surety engagement in Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-44). No man in heaven or earth could approach the throne, but only our Surety (Revelation 5:1-14). If this is not a Surety, successfully finishing His work, what is it (Isaiah 53:4-12)? The doctrine of representation by the Second Adam reveals our Surety (Romans 5:15-19). How else can we look at the Book of Life, but as the list of His Surety engagements! The Lord Jesus tasted death for every one of His children to deliver them (Heb 2:9-17).
Jim, read carefully the following scriptures and then you tell me that we were resurrection legally when Jesus Christ arose from the dead.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: "
Brother, you truly need to reconsider your position on this blessed truth. The body has never been separated from the head from the foundation of the world, never. Jim, these scriptures reveals that you understanding is wrong on this blessed truth.
Jim, here is were you greatly err. Let look at a truth that you and those in your camp never make mentioned of:
The SURETISHIP of Jesus Christ
Jesus, a High Priest after the order of Melchisedec, was made the Surety of His people. God chose Jesus from among the people to be the mighty Surety (Psalms 89:19 ). He was made Surety by God’s oath at His ordination as our Priest (Hebrews 7:21). Jesus did the will of God perfectly as our Surety for our salvation (Hebrews 10:5-19). Being a surety means paying debts and performing, where the needy cannot pay or do.The wages of sin is death, which God’s justice pays; but Jesus died (Romans 6:23). Only the undefiled enter heaven, so He lived faultlessly for us (Jude 1:24-25). Jesus was necessary as a surety, for the justice of God must surely be paid (Romans 3:26). He is the Testator, for it was by His death that He put the covenant in force (Hebrews 9:15). We see Him under the strain of the Surety engagement in Gethsemane (Luke 22:39-44). No man in heaven or earth could approach the throne, but only our Surety (Revelation 5:1-14). If this is not a Surety, successfully finishing His work, what is it (Isaiah 53:4-12)? The doctrine of representation by the Second Adam reveals our Surety (Romans 5:15-19). How else can we look at the Book of Life, but as the list of His Surety engagements! The Lord Jesus tasted death for every one of His children to deliver them (Heb 2:9-17).
Jim, read carefully the following scriptures and then you tell me that we were resurrection legally when Jesus Christ arose from the dead.
Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: " Brother, you truly need to reconsider your position on this blessed truth. The body has never been separated from the head from the foundation of the world, never. Jim, these scriptures reveals that you understanding is wrong on this blessed truth.
brightfame52
Active Member
We know you a works salvation person, but be advised, thats contrary to Grace salvation the bible teaches.
Doug Brents
Active Member
No, it is not. Scripture is very clear that: repentance leads to receiving forgiveness; public, verbal confession of Jesus as Lord results in receiving salvation; and baptism results in being saved. Your denial of this fact demonstrates either a lack of understanding of Biblical truth, or a denial of God's Word.
Red, my brother, do you not understand that Christ is here with us now in the person of the Holy Spirit. All these many years ago when I was born again, I had been dead in sins, but God made me alive, gave me life, together with Christ on that day.Ephesians 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
brightfame52
Active Member
Sure it is, but unfortunately you believe a falsehood, being deceived.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Thank you for your opinion. But until you can back that up with Scripture (which you can't), I'll stick with what God says in His Word.
Read the passages below, and tell me that they aren't conditional statements with salvation as the result of the actions stated:
Rom 10:9-10
Mark 16:16
Acts 3:19
Acts 2:38
brightfame52
Active Member
unfortunately you believe a falsehood, being deceived.
Titus
Active Member
Then why not begin to practice what you preach?
Since you teach unconditional election and that this election was determined by God before the foundation of the world.
It logically follows from your interpretation of the Scriptures that the elect are selected individually by God with mankind not having any ability to alter the determined destiny of these elected individuals. Therefore nothing you say or do will change Gods pre-determined sovereignty of His elect.
Conclusion to your theology is, its pointless to try and teach me your view of salvation when nothing man does can effect who God has already elected.
Your wasting your time on here.
Go do whatever you enjoy doing.
If its carnal sin.
Or godly living like Cornelius.
Do anything except evangelism because your religion makes this work a total waste of time on earth.
If I'm one of the elect, theres nothing you can do about it.
If I'm one of the depraved reprobates there is nothing you can teach to change that.
I can live however I want.
I dont get saved by my faith or my faithful living. I'm saved just like an jungle savage that never heard or believed on Jesus but was elected before the foundation of the world.
You see, you already convinced me you have not rightly divided the word because you contradict your own beliefs by trying to get me elected by teaching me to see the gospel the way you have been taught it.
If you would really practice what you teach, you would tell me that nothing you can teach me can have any effect on my election because election is UNCONDITIONAL GRACE MAN PLAYS NO PART IN SALVATION.
But that's not what you're doing ,so I'm sorry friend you are ignorantly being hypocritical.
It's not you, it's the religion in general.
I never meet calvinist that really 100% practise their calvinist doctrine in real life.
It's all philosophical theological debate that is mainly calvinism. Not real world practicality.
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Titus
Active Member
Unconditional Election.
Reformed theology.
Nothing I need to do then. Dont waste your time on me anymore.
I'm either elected or not. Nothing you can do about it, that would involve human effort like evangelism.
1John 2:17,
- the world is passing away, and also its lusts but the one who DOES(human effort) the will of God lives for ever
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