"Works Salvation"

[360watt]

Obeying the Father's will:

John 6:40 KJV
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[charismaticlady]

actually yes they do. again, if they did not. they would never sin again.

1 John 3 talks about lawless sin only, verse 4. Those are major like lying, stealing, murder etc from the Ten Commandments plus Galatians 5:19-21. These are called sins unto death. By Jesus writing these on our very nature we cannot sin, verse 9. Thus, we are granted eternal life. Satan's power over us is gone and we serve a new god of this world, the God and Savior Jesus Christ, King of the Universe. Phew! Let that one sink in!

1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That is being born again with a brand new nature that cannot commit a sin unto death. We have no desire to. It would take a lot for me to sin against my own conscience as I like to sleep at night! Could I? Of course, but it would be a willful sin, a presumptuous sin against God, and that is more important to me to not do, than serving myself. As I said, I like to sleep at night!

1 John 5:18
1 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

they have both. paul explains this well in romans 7

No, we have one or the other, but not both, otherwise, Jesus didn't free us from sin, and He did. But that was not me for the first 30 years of my life. I could only follow the commandments by my own power which most of the church still does. But that falls short of true holiness from God. It is our own righteousness we produce ourselves which are filthy in comparison. Being born again is from the baptism by fire from Jesus that John the Baptist told his disciples about. Only through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Christ living in us, can we like Him be righteous having overcome sin. Not by our own power, but by having a new engine installed supernaturally.

Romans 7: 14-25 is talking about when we still had sin in us while we were in the flesh. That was life under the law for all of us since Moses. But Paul starts chapter 7 by taking us forward to when we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, and being in the flesh was in our past before the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ. verses 5-6. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

no we are cleansed from the power of sin. and given the power over sin

again, if the desire was no longer there. we would never sin again.. I hope even you see this is not true

Right. (if the desire was no longer there. we would never sin again..) That is what 1 John 3:9 actually says! "9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Remember that verse is ONLY sins unto death. There is another type of sin that we will commit while we are still babes in Christ having to do with the fruit of the Spirit, not the Laws of God. These are called "sins not unto death." Or trespasses. Lev. 5:15 unintentionally committed, but grow out of by the pricking of our conscience over and over by the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-7 describes that lifelong journey, mislabeled sanctification, but is actually glorification.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

Now he asks us to continue to learn to trust him more. and self less. this is called christian growth..

Yes, glorification.

the wage of sin is death

is this hard for you to understand?

if you commit a personal sin. the penalty of that sin is death. or literally separation from God.

if we take it from a legal standpoint. not only are we dead because of Adams sin, but every personal sin we have ever committed brings with it a death sentence.

How many sins have you commited. can you fathom? And how many death sentences do you have against you. can you fathom

who is worthy?

The wage of lawless sin is death, Numbers 15:30-36 but not trespasses from immature fruit, Numbers 15:22-29.

What is a personal sin? A sin against ourself? A personal sin could be either willful or unintentional. Willful is death. Unintentional is not.

I never said we are slaves to sin

I said we still have the flesh, which means there are times where we will still chose to serve self over others.

No, Jesus is the one who says he who sins is a slave to sin. John 8:32-36. Sometimes it is wise to take care of yourself first so you CAN serve others. That is not a sin.

Jesus said there are two commands, the law of love we call it

Love the lord our God. and our neighbor.

who is our neighbor anyone we come in contract with

if we love and serve them, we will not sin

if we however. chose to serve self. and not them. to us it is in.

we do this intentionally or willingly.. Not by accident, we also commit sins we may not even know are sin.. here I can see but that is why we star in the word. the more I grow. the more sinfull I see I am

For me, the more I grow, the more thankful I am to Jesus for taking that desire away. I have no strength in myself. He does all the heavy lifting in me.

 

[Jim]

1. Its the work of God we have faith (john 6)

It is Jesus' answer to their question of what they must do. And that after Jesus told them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but [labor] for the food that endures to eternal life...."

EDIT what Jesus said. He is telling them the labor, the work, required to receive eternal life.

 

[360watt]

Maybe you could explain the above a little better.

Maybe you could add some scripture to support your view.

Maybe you could reply to my post to you no. 2003

And I'm still waiting on your reply on the other thread about YOUR version of how to handle posting verses that ARE IN CONTEXT.

Okay..

Salvation itself is in the likes of John 3:16, 3:36, 6:40, 10:28

The right response to this salvation being given, not by works, is in the likes of James 2 and:

Romans 12:1 KJV
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Never said it was our actions that save us.

You do every time you say water baptism saves

Certainly salvation is God's grace (gift), but that gift is received ONLY through the actions that God says we must do to receive it.

so actions or no actions..

Not trying to earn anything.
Was Naaman trying to earn cleansing by doing what the prophet told him God told him to do?
Were the Israelites trying to earn healing when they looked at the bronze serpent Moses put on the pole?
Was the widow trying to earn food when she gave here last meal to the prophet?
Was the other widow trying to earn anything when she borrowed the jars the prophet told her to borrow to pour oil into?
Was Israel trying to earn the Promised Land when they went to war with the nations in it?
Were they trying to earn Jericho by marching around it like they were told?
No, none of this was done to "earn" anything. But if these actions had not been taken, the gift would never have been received.

You are trying to earn through your actions. Not the action of the savior.

God said through me, not me and you

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is Jesus' answer to their question of what they must do. And that after Jesus told them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but [labor] for the food that endures to eternal life...."

EDIT what Jesus said. He is telling them the labor, the work, required to receive eternal life.

which is Gods work

it is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and they are life

The work is to eat the bread from heaven (words0 to gnaw and chose on his flesh and blood (again the words0 so we understand them completely and can have the knowledge and power to receive his gift of eternal life. by coming to him in faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Okay..

Salvation itself is in the likes of John 3:16, 3:36, 6:40, 10:28

The right response to this salvation being given, not by works, is in the likes of James 2 and:

Romans 12:1 KJV
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable serviceamen

As Adam and Eve presented themselves to God. naked. and allowed God to cover them through the death of the innocent.. a pure picture of atonement

 

[Jim]

As Adam and Eve presented themselves to God. naked. and allowed God to cover them through the death of the innocent.. a pure picture of atonement

Animals are neither guilty nor innocent. Guilt and innocence apply only to man.

 

[Jim]

which is Gods work

it is the spirit who gives life. the words I speak are spirit and they are life

The work is to eat the bread from heaven (words0 to gnaw and chose on his flesh and blood (again the words0 so we understand them completely and can have the knowledge and power to receive his gift of eternal life. by coming to him in faith.

So in eating the bread from heaven is not something that we are to do? You clearly do not understand anything that Jesus said there.

 

[GodsGrace]

easy now

Well, after being called a edit all afternoon (my afternoon) and being told I'm not saved quite a few times now...
I'd say my reply was VERY controlled.

And the "easy now" should be directed to other members....those that were doing the above.

 

[DavidTree]

Well, after being called a edit all afternoon (my afternoon) and being told I'm not saved quite a few times now...
I'd say my reply was VERY controlled.

And the "easy now" should be directed to other members....those that were doing the above.

i did not see those post and now understand

 

[Doug Brents]

You do every time you say water baptism saves

Not at all. It is THROUGH our actions that we receive the gift which Jesus purchased with His blood. Our actions do not have any ability to purchase salvation, nor do God owe us salvation because of our actions. But without our actions, we do not receive His gift.

so actions or no actions..

Salvation is received THROUGH faith, and without actions there is no faith. So actions most certainly MUST be taken to receive God's gift.

You are trying to earn through your actions. Not the action of the savior.

Not even one little bit.

God said through me, not me and you

Again:
Did Naaman contribute anything at all to his cleansing by doing what the prophet told him God told him to do?
Did the Israelites contribute anything at all to their healing when they looked at the bronze serpent Moses put on the pole?
Did the widow contribute anything at all to extending her food when she gave here last meal to the prophet?
Did the other widow contribute anything at all when she borrowed the jars the prophet told her to borrow to pour oil into?
Did Israel contribute anything at all to earning the Promised Land when they went to war with the nations in the land God had already given to them?
Did Israel contribute anything at all to the fall of the walls of Jericho by marching around it like they were told?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

1 John 3 talks about lawless sin only, verse 4. Those are major like lying, stealing, murder etc from the Ten Commandments plus Galatians 5:19-21. These are called sins unto death. By Jesus writing these on our very nature we cannot sin, verse 9. Thus, we are granted eternal life. Satan's power over us is gone and we serve a new god of this world, the God and Savior Jesus Christ, King of the Universe. Phew! Let that one sink in!

I see it differently, Sin - the greek word- literally means to miss the mark.

anytime we serve self. or even do a good deed but with the wrong attitude 9 to serve self) to us it is sin. it is missing Gods perfect standard.. as he said, if we know to do good. but do not do it. to us it is sin.. we have not done what God would have us to do

John said whoever sins has never seen or known God.. whoever is born of God can not sin.

again, in the greek, it speaks of habitual sin, or living in sin It is also not a personal sin. it is a lifestyle of sin.. the sin we had before we came to christ and was changed

1 John 3:4-9
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

That is being born again with a brand new nature that cannot commit a sin unto death.

what do you mean about sin unto death? I am not sure where you are going here

It says he can not sin. it does not mention anything about death.

We have no desire to. It would take a lot for me to sin against my own conscience as I like to sleep at night!

yet we do it..

Could I? Of course, but it would be a willful sin, a presumptuous sin against God, and that is more important to me to not do, than serving myself. As I said, I like to sleep at night!

so when you sin, it is an oopsie? an accident?

do we really think this?

1 John 5:18
1 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

yes..

But again, Even paul said he did not do what he wanted.. He still sinned, in fact he called himself the chief of all sinners (present tense) he ran did not think he made it. he continued to run the race

No, we have one or the other, but not both, otherwise, Jesus didn't free us from sin,

Again, Paul said we have both

with the spirit he serves God

with the flesh he serves self.

his stuggle with both started the moment he was saved

and He did. But that was not me for the first 30 years of my life. I could only follow the commandments by my own power which most of the church still does.

why did you follow. what did you expect to get from it?

But that falls short of true holiness from God. It is our own righteousness we produce ourselves which are filthy in comparison.

ok yes. 100%

Being born again is from the baptism by fire from Jesus that John the Baptist told his disciples about.

Baptism in fire is hellfire.. Baptism of the spirit is what brings the wheat into the barn (us into heaven)

Bvaptism in the fire that shall never be quenched is given to the chaff. who have never been saved.

john is saying I baptize in water. and that great, But jesus will baptize with the HS and fire.. every one of you will be baptized by Jesus chose which one you desire..

Only through the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Christ living in us, can we like Him be righteous having overcome sin. Not by our own power, but by having a new engine installed supernaturally.

amen, 100 % agree..

Romans 7: 14-25 is talking about when we still had sin in us while we were in the flesh.

No, Paul is talking in present tense. not past tense. He did not say before I was in the spirit. i did this, He said right here right now I struggle

That was life under the law for all of us since Moses. But Paul starts chapter 7 by taking us forward to when we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit, and being in the flesh was in our past before the Holy Spirit from Jesus Christ. verses 5-6. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

yes we have the power to live by the spirit. it does not mean we will chose to do this 24/7

Romans 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

yes. But the flesh is not dead.. every moment of every day we are tasked with a choice. follow God or serve self..

Right. (if the desire was no longer there. we would never sin again..) That is what 1 John 3:9 actually says! "9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The same author said if we say we have (present tense) no sin wqe decieve ourselves.

so did the apostle contridict himself. or did he mean somethign else

again, the greek means literally to live in continual sin, or habitually sin.

its not say we can never sin again. John would not contradict himself

Remember that verse is ONLY sins unto death.

sin can no longer lead to spiritual death for those who are saved.

Sin can however lead to physical death for those who are saved.

example. I drink to much for whatever reason (depression, drinking with friends) I get behind the wheaal of a car because of my pride. and refusal to acknowledge I am impaired. and I get in a crash and die

that is a sin unto death. and paul said we should not pray for it

There is another type of sin that we will commit while we are still babes in Christ having to do with the fruit of the Spirit, not the Laws of God.

sin is sin is sin.

the laws of God does not tell us every sin. It just exposes some sins that everyone commits in a attempt to point them to christ.

These are called "sins not unto death." Or trespasses. Lev. 5:15 unintentionally committed, but grow out of by the pricking of our conscience over and over by the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-7 describes that lifelong journey, mislabeled sanctification, but is actually glorification.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.


Yes, glorification.

The wage of lawless sin is death, Numbers 15:30-36 but not trespasses from immature fruit, Numbers 15:22-29.

the wage of sin is death

Adam ate from a fruit of a tree and not only did he die. his wife died and all mankind died.

don;t water down sin as there are some good sins and bad sins, All sins cause death. God can not relate to sin, it all must be paid for. thats what the cross did

What is a personal sin? A sin against ourself? A personal sin could be either willful or unintentional. Willful is death. Unintentional is not.

people commit willfull sin every day and do not die

unintentional sin does not give us an out. James said if we even stumble we are guilty..

No, Jesus is the one who says he who sins is a slave to sin. John 8:32-36. Sometimes it is wise to take care of yourself first so you CAN serve others. That is not a sin.

not if God promised to take care of you. and you are trying to do Gods work. like sadly so many do.

Jesus did not to do

For me, the more I grow, the more thankful I am to Jesus for taking that desire away. I have no strength in myself. He does all the heavy lifting in me.

amen, we should all pray for this.. But we also should remember who we are.. and not think we made it..

 

[DavidTree]

Not at all. It is THROUGH our actions that we receive the gift which Jesus purchased with His blood. Our actions do not have any ability to purchase salvation, nor do God owe us salvation because of our actions. But without our actions, we do not receive His gift.

Salvation is received THROUGH faith, and without actions there is no faith. So actions most certainly MUST be taken to receive God's gift.

Not even one little bit.

Again:
Did Naaman contribute anything at all to his cleansing by doing what the prophet told him God told him to do?
Did the Israelites contribute anything at all to their healing when they looked at the bronze serpent Moses put on the pole?
Did the widow contribute anything at all to extending her food when she gave here last meal to the prophet?
Did the other widow contribute anything at all when she borrowed the jars the prophet told her to borrow to pour oil into?
Did Israel contribute anything at all to earning the Promised Land when they went to war with the nations in the land God had already given to them?
Did Israel contribute anything at all to the fall of the walls of Jericho by marching around it like they were told?

It is THROUGH our actions that we receive the gift which Jesus purchased with His blood

those "actions" are preceeded by................God or man???

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is Jesus' answer to their question of what they must do. And that after Jesus told them, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but [labor] for the food that endures to eternal life...."

EDIT what Jesus said. He is telling them the labor, the work, required to receive eternal life.

yes

and what is the labor

work for the food which endures forever

what is that food.

the word of God

what is our labor. not to take the word lightly. but to work and seek to understand the words of eternal life.

its not obeying the law. or obeying any command, or trying to be good. it is working to seek what can save. We can not save ourselves. God did

It is the work of God THAT YOU BELIEVE.

Our faith is not our work.. it is Gods work. as God draws us to him, and teaches us, as we seek to understand.

Our work is to search, Gods work is to help us find what we are searching (eternal life) for and to save us when we find it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Animals are neither guilty nor innocent. Guilt and innocence apply only to man.

you missed the whole picture

God said to pick an animal without blemish

God picked an animal with out blemish

God covered their nakendess with that animal. not because they worked to earn that gift of covering

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So in eating the bread from heaven is not something that we are to do? You clearly do not understand anything that Jesus said there.

you clearly do not know how to read.

try again, But sadly. I do not think you will understand what I said.

I said the apposite of what you accused me of. do I need to call you8 out like I do another memeber for bearing false witness?

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay..

Salvation itself is in the likes of John 3:16, 3:36, 6:40, 10:28

The right response to this salvation being given, not by works, is in the likes of James 2 and:

Romans 12:1 KJV
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Do we present our bodies as a living sacrifice BEFORE or AFTER salvation?

Do any of the verses you've posted speak to obedience?

Your verses:

John 3.16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
IF we believe in Jesus we will have eternal life.
What does BELIEVE mean anyway?
If we believe in Jesus are we required to obey Him?
Or is it a choice?


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Some on this very forum have stated that obedience is a work.
Do YOU believe obeying God is a work?
So they try to change the word OBEY above to NOT BELIEVE...which, if you know anything about the Greek language,
means exactly the same. But it seems that the word OBEY is objectionable.


John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
Yes sir, the will of the Father is that none be lost. 1 Timothy 2:4
And those that obey the Son will NOT be lost.
Does obedience to Jesus include good works?
Did Jesus preach about this for over 3 years?


John 10:28
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never * perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.


John 10:28 is different from the other verses you've posted and I don't know why you have.
But, yes, nothing can take us from the love of God.


Why would Christians find it objectionable to state that we are to obey Jesus' teachings?
Does the word BELIEVE signify obedience or not?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, after being called a liar all afternoon (my afternoon) and being told I'm not saved quite a few times now...
I'd say my reply was VERY controlled.

And the "easy now" should be directed to other members....those that were doing the above.

you have falsly accused me multiple times. and lied about what you have or have not done

Maybe show a little humility. and you will not be called out so much.

as for not saved. again, I question your salvation/. I have not said you are not saved. so again, you have been caught in another lie.

Keep it up girl.. The mods are watching

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

i did not see those post and now understand

You were correct in calling her out.

Read all the posts. and you will see.