"Works Salvation"

[Eternally-Grateful]

Apparently @Doug Brents knows what DOES NOT BELIEVE means in the Greek....post 2074.

You should learn the meaning of BELIEVE and UNBELIEF in Greek.

appearantly @Doug Brents does not. Because he uses obey in a different way

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Salvation is not based on works.

Whether it's Judaism, Islam, or the more non-theistic religions such as Buddhism, they all explain that salvation (of sorts) is obtained by performing. They say our “good” works must outweigh our bad works.

Amen and Amen

sadly. many Christian faiths are no different, again relying on their own works to keep them saved

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So you believe it's OK to disobey Jesus?

where did @Eliada she say or even insinuate this was even possible?

 

[mailmandan]

You've said it all:

You said OBEDIENCE IS WORKS.

You said we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

So, in effect,,,you're saying
WE SHOULD NOT OBEY JESUS.

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Incredible.

Your lack of discernment is incredible.

You've made your statement above.
No need to comment further.
If we do NOT OBEY God,,,we will not be saved.

If we do not believe the gospel, we will not be saved. Any attempts beyond that to obey God is futile.

Jesus taught good works....
so, if we want to OBEY GOD,,,we must do good works.

Faith is believing and obedience beyond that is works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Excuse me, but Matthew 7:24 and 26 does NOT speak about believers or unbelievers.

It PLAINLY states:
7:24 those who ACT on the words of Jesus are wise men.

7:26 those who DO NOT ACT on the words of Jesus are foolish men.

YOU add to scripture what you THINK is correct but which JESUS did not teach.

You just eisegeted Matthew 7:24 and Matthew 7:26 right above.
No further comment is necessary.

You add to scripture, you twist scripture.
Anything to make it mean what YOU want it to mean and not what Jesus is teaching.

No context necessary.

Here's what JESUS said again.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

Jesus was speaking just previously about those being LAWLESS as not entering into the Kingdom of heaven.
The lawless are those that do NOT OBEY the law...in this case the law of Christ.

Those that ACT on HIS WORDS are like the wise men.

Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.

Those that DO NOT ACT on HIS WORDS are like the foolish men.

No mention here of believers, unbelievers, or anything else OTHER THAN Jesus teaching that we are to ACT on HIS WORDS.

Plain and simple.

Act on His words = Wise
Not act on His words = Foolish

Throughout the context (Matthew 7:15-27) Jesus is contrasting believers and unbelievers using descriptive language. If you can't figure that out, then I cannot help you any further.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

EG, you probably are not going to like this or agree. Colossians is not just about ceremonial laws that have nothing to do with us anymore. See if you can follow this.

I never said it was.

Adam died because he had something against him, He disobeyed God and was given a death sentence.

Col 2 said everything against us.. was taken away. not just the law

What was contrary to us?

Because we were dead. separated from God. without hope. lost in a fallen world. I can go on and on and on

Ask yourself what was circumsized? Whatever it was we still have it. Only the bad part got cut off and nailed to the cross. Romans 6 tells us it was the "old man" that was crucified. Our old self. We are not the law. What makes us either righteous or evil is our nature.

It says WE WERE CIRCUMCIZED

Circumcised represented cleansing.

Jus tlike baptism represented cleansing

remember, Paul said our spiritul circumcision was accomplished through the spiritual baptism of the one who raised jesus from the dead.

We inherited a sin nature from Adam ever since he willfully sinned. What was circumsized off of us was our sin nature, the carnal flesh. It is the whole body of sin that got circumsized off of our nature and nailed to the cross. True Christians are those who are born again without the sin in our nature, and why Jesus said that we MUST be born again.

if this is all that was cut off. we are still dead in our sin. and are lost without hope..

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Galatians 3:19-20 tells us why we needed the law in the first place - our transgressions - our sins. There are two ways to look at this, and Paul used both in his eight-chapter teaching to the Romans on the Law vs. the Spirit.

There is a carnal way of looking at it - the broad way - that the law was done away with, therefore, our sins no longer condemn us.

Or, the more difficult way that the whole of sin in our nature was circumsized and nailed to the cross, so we could be raised up clean and partakers of the divine nature of God, 2 Peter 1:2-4.

again, what made us dead.. The law exposed our sin.. But the condemnation was just as sure to the OT people who did nto have the law.

the law was to lead us to Christ, It expose our sin, to show us our debt. and lead us to christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You've said it all:

You said OBEDIENCE IS WORKS.

You said we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

So, in effect,,,you're saying
WE SHOULD NOT OBEY JESUS.

Another Lie

if the mods are here. can we please ask this person to stop spreading false accusations against others?

 

[GodsGrace]

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

Here is what you said...HOW am I putting words in your mouth if I just repeat what you say...

"Of course I do. Maybe you don't understand that obedience is works and we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)"

Are you stating that obedience is works or not?
Your sentence states that you believe obedience is works.

Your lack of discernment is incredible.

If we do not believe the gospel, we will not be saved. Any attempts beyond that to obey God is futile.

You are AGAIN stating that obedience to God is futile.
Read your words before you post them.

Faith is believing and obedience beyond that is works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

You are AGAIN stating that obedience is works.

Thanks for proving I do not put words into your mouth.
You're capable of speaking entirely on your own.

Throughout the context (Matthew 7:15-27) Jesus is contrasting believers and unbelievers using descriptive language. If you can't figure that out, then I cannot help you any further.

I think Jesus knew what He wanted to say and said it.
I don't read any word that Jesus says about believers or unbelievers.
What I DO read is HIS instructions on HOW WE ARE TO BEHAVE and FOLLOW HIS TEACHINGS.

You add to scripture, as usual.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It all depends on what type of nature is controlling you. The sin nature we were born with? Man without the Holy Spirit by nature does sin. How can you say we do not by nature sin?

your right.

But that nature is still there. if it was not there we would no longer sin anymore ever..

We must crucify our flesh. if we do not. we are willingly going to serve our flesh. even if it means knowing to do good. but not doing it

We can not then say opps that was a mistake, I did not willingly do it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Many of the Jews did not believe Jesus was the awaited Messiah.

Why don't you state history as it was?

I did

how many jews said they obeyed the law since birth. and even when jesus tried to correct them by pointing it out to them, they still did not believe.

Jesus DID NOT say that good works do not save us....

Yes he did, in every verse I gave you

Jesus said the MOSAIC Covenant could not save us....
the ceremonial law was aboished.

No work can save us. there was no law when abraham was saved. he was saved before he did one work. and Paul said in romans 4 we are saved by that same faith. a faith that does not include works.

The moral law was NOT...
Jesus said OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS must be greater than that of the pharisees.

to prove a point. No ones righteousness was. Mine is not. Yours most likely is not.. They were avid rule or law followers. by the letter of the law. they were the top righteous people on earth. a standard by the time jesus said those words. no one could even think of achieving.

He was proving a point to them. If you want to save yourself. this is what you must do

otherwise. i am your only option

What do you think Jesus meant by that?
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.....and you claim our righteousness is sinful !

Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Righteousness does for selfish means is not righteousness done out of love. Hence they are not true righteousness. But actually they are sin.. Because it is done to serve self not God

doing good deeds to earn salvation is serving self not God

Doing salvation because you are saved. and because God loved you and saved you eternally and created you to serve others. is not self righteous. because it asks for nothing in return

 

[mailmandan]

Find out what DISOBEY means in Greek.
You LOVE Greek...
why don't you love it in this case???

You only accept verses that you like,,,
unfortunately, ALL of scripture must be accepted by a Christian.

It means to disobey, or refuse to believe. It signifies a wilful and perverse refusal to be persuaded. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

So, in the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. You equate believing with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing and the end result is salvation by works/works righteousness.

 

[charismaticlady]

if this is all that was cut off. we are still dead in our sin. and are lost without hope..

What is this? How can we be dead in our sin if we no longer have the desire to sin a part of us?

I need this answered before I can address the rest properly. Thanks.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Gave you a whole page full of verses on doing good works.

And unlike you. I responded to every passage you gave, and put them in proper context.

And YOU call ME a liar!!!

You are a liar, I responded to those verses. And you can not even acknowledge I did.. and now here you are trying to make it appear as if I ignored all those verses. when I did not.

Go back and read it.

I DID. AND I RESPONDED.

Something YOU FAIL TO DO.

EVERY NT writer said we must do good works.

Not to earn or keep saved.

but because we are saved

It's a different gospel to believe that, somehow, good works are not necessary.

Its a different gospel to preach your acts of obedience will save you.

and then sit and claim you do not preach a gospel of works.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Sadly for you...
GOD demands obedience.

yes

But you can obey the rest of your life. and not sin ever again,

you will still fall short of Gods glory and be condemned where you stand..

Good works are obedience to Jesus.

Yes. if done out of love. not done to serve self (keep onself saved0

Acting on His words is wise.
Not acting on his words is foolish.

Then why don't you act?

Matthew 7:24, 26

Don't listen to me, Jim, Synergy, or anyone else that has the proper understanding of scripture...
listen to JESUS.

I do listen to jesus

All three of you have twisted Jesus words to your own fate.

You cause Jesus to contradict himself. Who can trust a God who can not keep hi

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Strawmen, as usual.

No comment.

because you have no comment

Your silence speaks loudly.. and I hear it well

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What is this? How can we be dead in our sin if we no longer have the desire to sin a part of us?

can you explain, this does not make sense.

a desire is not sin.. A desire is a temptation. sin is when we act on that temptation.

what does this have to do with being dead in sin

I need this answered before I can address the rest properly. Thanks.

I do not understand your question.

the wage of sin is death, all have sinned and fall short

so all have the penalty of sin applied to them, we all have the death penalty

the gift of God is life.. that penalty is removed..

the penalty is removed, the power is removed, the ability is still there.

that's why we must crucify the flesh

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. You need to stop putting words in my mouth.

see. I am not the only one who sees this members lies.

 

[GodsGrace]

It means to disobey, or refuse to believe. It signifies a wilful and perverse refusal to be persuaded. Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely."

So, in the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son. You equate believing with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow believing and the end result is salvation by works/works righteousness.

If obeying Jesus is works righteousness....
Then I'll follow works righteousness.

No further comment.

 

[charismaticlady]

But that nature is still there. if it was not there we would no longer sin anymore ever..

A true Christian filled with God does not have a sin nature, but a human nature cleansed like Adam before he sinned. But what we can have that Adam did not have was God in us! That is why the gospel of Christ Jesus is the power of God to salvation Romans 1:16-17. We are cleansed of the desire to sin so we may partake of the divine nature of God. We are controlled by our desires. Are those desires righteous or sinful? It depends on if we have been born again or not and why it is so important that we are as no sin can enter heaven. Only righteousness or holiness. Revelation 22:11

We must crucify our flesh.

No, not us. We must surrender to the Author of our faith. Jesus is also the one responsible to Finish our faith to perfection. He is the one with the power to take away our sin, and in Him is no sin. 1 John 3:5.

 

[charismaticlady]

can you explain, this does not make sense.

a desire is not sin.. A desire is a temptation. sin is when we act on that temptation.

what does this have to do with being dead in sin

Dead in sin? Only a sinner is a slave to sin. John 8:34-36. To be a slave of righteousness, all desire to sin must be gone - crucified. We MUST be born again of the Spirit. How do you explain to people what is meant by being born again of the Spirit? It is not anything we can do ourselves.

 

[charismaticlady]

EG, I'll be back later. This is a great conversation with you - the best we've had so far.