"Works Salvation"

[GodsGrace]

Salvation is not based on works.

Whether it's Judaism, Islam, or the more non-theistic religions such as Buddhism, they all explain that salvation (of sorts) is obtained by performing. They say our “good” works must outweigh our bad works.

So you believe it's OK to disobey Jesus?

 

[charismaticlady]

col 2 states he removed what was against us, contrary to us, and nailed it to the cross.

Sin has now power over us, because it can not condemn us anymore hence we are no longer bound to it.

The law is gone. No longer do we need anual animal sacrifice to pay for sin of the previous year. Jesus died once.

we do not get saved, then lose salvation every time we sin and need resaved. if this is what you are saying this worries me, If not. Can you explain?

EG, you probably are not going to like this or agree. Colossians is not just about ceremonial laws that have nothing to do with us anymore. See if you can follow this.

What was contrary to us? Ask yourself what was circumsized? Whatever it was we still have it. Only the bad part got cut off and nailed to the cross. Romans 6 tells us it was the "old man" that was crucified. Our old self. We are not the law. What makes us either righteous or evil is our nature.

We inherited a sin nature from Adam ever since he willfully sinned. What was circumsized off of us was our sin nature, the carnal flesh. It is the whole body of sin that got circumsized off of our nature and nailed to the cross. True Christians are those who are born again without the sin in our nature, and why Jesus said that we MUST be born again.

Romans 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

Galatians 3:19-20 tells us why we needed the law in the first place - our transgressions - our sins. There are two ways to look at this, and Paul used both in his eight-chapter teaching to the Romans on the Law vs. the Spirit.

There is a carnal way of looking at it - the broad way - that the law was done away with, therefore, our sins no longer condemn us.

Or, the more difficult way that the whole of sin in our nature was circumsized and nailed to the cross, so we could be raised up clean and partakers of the divine nature of God, 2 Peter 1:2-4.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We are saved though faith. Faith is an action. Faith, i.e., believing in God, is something we do. We are saved through what we DO. We DO it and through that we are saved. We believe in God and then God saves us.

1. Its the work of God we have faith (john 6)
2. We are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not of works

faith is not a work we do to get saved.

It is a trust we have in christ to repent and recieve his gift of life. We can't boast because it is not a work. We boast in Christ, who did all the work.

a suggestion made to me decades ago was to stop trusting in self. and put my faith in Christ. not only for salvation, but in all I do. if I do this, I will be in a good spot. because its not about me..

I can see now however. why calvinist's think faith is a work.. it is in response to people who think faith is something we do to save ourselves.

thats far from the truth.

Faith is what allows us against our nature to trust him, and recieve his gift of life.

sadly. human nature wants to earn it. to pay for it, to work for it.

thats why 99% of all worlds religion (including christianity) preaches faith plus works..

because thats human nature. and satan leans into it to decieve many

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We are saved by what Jesus did. All we must do is receive, in faith, the salvation God offers Ephesians 2:8-9 We fully trust in Jesus alone as the payment for our sins.

yes,

sadly far to many can not repent fully. they have to play some part..

This is why the jew could not trust Jesus.. they thought their works saved them also.. and Jesus told them they could not

 

[GodsGrace]

You did.

Amen!

I preach AGAINST Works-righteousness ans self-righteousness but NOT against good works.

When you say absolutely necessary, the problem is you make good works absolutely necessary for salvation/good works become the means of salvation. Again, good works are not forced or legalistic for born again believers but they are for works-salvationists.

Amen and we are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Agree or disagree?

Of course I do. Maybe you don't understand that obedience is works and we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

You've said it all:

You said OBEDIENCE IS WORKS.

You said we ARE NOT SAVED BY WORKS.

So, in effect,,,you're saying
WE SHOULD NOT OBEY JESUS.

Incredible.

I never said acting on the words of Jesus was unimportant. That is your continuous strawman argument. I don't deny the words of Jesus. I only deny your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness.

Then you twist those scriptures to teach salvation by works/works righteousness.

You've made your statement above.
No need to comment further.
If we do NOT OBEY God,,,we will not be saved.
Jesus taught good works....
so, if we want to OBEY GOD,,,we must do good works.

In Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as you would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome.

One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands (descriptive of believers). The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses (descriptive of make believers).

The rock the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. Only those who truly believe in Him (John 3:18) are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them.

Excuse me, but Matthew 7:24 and 26 does NOT speak about believers or unbelievers.

It PLAINLY states:
7:24 those who ACT on the words of Jesus are wise men.

7:26 those who DO NOT ACT on the words of Jesus are foolish men.

YOU add to scripture what you THINK is correct but which JESUS did not teach.

I twisted nothing. I simply corrected your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness.

You just eisegeted Matthew 7:24 and Matthew 7:26 right above.
No further comment is necessary.

You add to scripture, you twist scripture.
Anything to make it mean what YOU want it to mean and not what Jesus is teaching.

Yes, His statements are simple and easy to understand as long as you read them in context (Matthew 7:15-27) and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

No context necessary.

Here's what JESUS said again.

Matthew 7:24
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.


Jesus was speaking just previously about those being LAWLESS as not entering into the Kingdom of heaven.
The lawless are those that do NOT OBEY the law...in this case the law of Christ.

Those that ACT on HIS WORDS are like the wise men.


Matthew 7:26
26 "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.


Those that DO NOT ACT on HIS WORDS are like the foolish men.


No mention here of believers, unbelievers, or anything else OTHER THAN Jesus teaching that we are to ACT on HIS WORDS.

Plain and simple.

Act on His words = Wise
Not act on His words = Foolish

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Who said anyone is saved by their works?

You
Jim
Synergy

and everyone else who claims it is faith plus works of obedience which must be done in order to in the end be saved.

failure to do these works disqualify us from salvation and it is lost..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Post some verses that state what you believe.

There aren't any.

Because what Jesus did for His entire ministry was to show how to be better people...
make a better world....

This requires a change in our behavior and many good works.

no,

this requires being saved, born again, made new creatures. having the barrier between us and God removed, and the spirit of God imputed to us so we can do these things you demand we must do.

You have the end right. You have the reason and purpose wrong

and what verses?

I posted them to you numerous times.. You refuse to even look at them and show us where we are wrong..

 

[charismaticlady]

we do not willfully sin? Says who?

are you saying we make oopsies. we sin on accident?

We do not by nature sin, amen, But we willfully sin often.. If you do not think you do. then I am worried.

It all depends on what type of nature is controlling you. The sin nature we were born with? Man without the Holy Spirit by nature does sin. How can you say we do not by nature sin?

 

[GodsGrace]

yes,

sadly far to many can not repent fully. they have to play some part..

This is why the jew could not trust Jesus.. they thought their works saved them also.. and Jesus told them they could not

Many of the Jews did not believe Jesus was the awaited Messiah.

Why don't you state history as it was?

Jesus DID NOT say that good works do not save us....
Jesus said the MOSAIC Covenant could not save us....
the ceremonial law was aboished.

The moral law was NOT...
Jesus said OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS must be greater than that of the pharisees.

What do you think Jesus meant by that?
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.....and you claim our righteousness is sinful !

Matthew 5:20
20 "For I say to you that unless * your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[mailmandan]

John 3:36 states, "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." This verse emphasizes the critical choice between belief and unbelief in Jesus Christ.

Belief in Jesus leads to eternal life, highlighting the promise of salvation for those who accept Him.

Unbelief results in the absence of life and the presence of God's wrath, indicating serious eternal consequences for rejecting the Son.
The verse serves as a conclusion to John the Baptist's testimony about Jesus, reinforcing the importance of faith in Him as the Son of God.

This encapsulates the essence of Christian faith and the stark contrast between the outcomes of belief and unbelief.

Amen! Sadly, I often hear folks who promote salvation by works twist John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which "follow" believing in Jesus unto salvation.

Now if John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said.

The HCSB translation sums it up very nicely. John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[GodsGrace]

no,

this requires being saved, born again, made new creatures. having the barrier between us and God removed, and the spirit of God imputed to us so we can do these things you demand we must do.

You have the end right. You have the reason and purpose wrong

and what verses?

I posted them to you numerous times.. You refuse to even look at them and show us where we are wrong..

Gave you a whole page full of verses on doing good works.



Go back and read it.
EVERY NT writer said we must do good works.

It's a different gospel to believe that, somehow, good works are not necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen! Sadly, I often hear folks who promote salvation by works twist John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved "by" obedience/works which "follow" believing in Jesus unto salvation.

Now if John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said.

The HCSB translation sums it up very nicely. John 3:36 - The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Find out what DISOBEY means in Greek.
You LOVE Greek...
why don't you love it in this case???

You only accept verses that you like,,,
unfortunately, ALL of scripture must be accepted by a Christian.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Maybe you just don't really understand what is meant by salvation.

or maybe you do not?

Salvation in the greek means to literally be rescued

We are dead to God. in a state of despair. lost without Hope.

to be saved means to be rescued from that which keeps us seperated from God. and have that relatiopnship restored.

Our works are obedience to God.
They keep us saved.

Then we are nto saved,

which proves

1. YOU do not know what salvation is
2. YTOU think we must earn your salvation.. yet you just screamed you do not teach salvation by works. Hence you contradict yourself

No obedience.
No salvation.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Does not obey him

What is obedience? What is Gods standard?

If I obey him some times but not all times, is this obedience?

if I obey him most of the time, is this obedience worthy to earn salvation?

John said a child of God can not continually disobey him or live in sin, because they have been born of God.

why do you resist in trusting God to change you and make you his child and a person who produces fruit.. byclaiming God can fail to do what he promised?

Now, go ahead and take issue with the word OBEY because it insults your belief system.

Again, You are a LIAR. and yes I am calling you out. you continue to bear false witness I will report you (I am not ashamed to repot someone who continually and without prococation LIES about other people..

I beliebe A CHILD OF GOD OBEYS. Because GOD CHANGES THEM (trust in God)

You believe THEY CAN DISOBAY AND LOSE SALVATION. (faith in yourself)

your the one with the issue of obedience. not me

keep it up girl.. I am AMAZED YOU PREACH OBEDIENCE WHILE CONTINUALLY BREAKING ONE OF GODS COMMANDS (you shall not bare false witness) YOURSELF

 

[GodsGrace]

You
Jim
Synergy

and everyone else who claims it is faith plus works of obedience which must be done in order to in the end be saved.

failure to do these works disqualify us from salvation and it is lost..

Sadly for you...
GOD demands obedience.

Good works are obedience to Jesus.


Acting on His words is wise.
Not acting on his words is foolish.

Matthew 7:24, 26

Don't listen to me, Jim, Synergy, or anyone else that has the proper understanding of scripture...
listen to JESUS.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Explain

if the person sold his property in order to recieve salvation. or he recieved salvation as a down payment, and he had to sell his property to keep salvation.

then he bases his own salvation on grace plus works

if, on the other hand, He sold his property because he was changed, He was saved, and his gratitude for the great gift God gave him.

then it is bearing fruit.. and he will be rewarded it. But it has nothing to do with his salvation.

I hope this helps. if not let me know

 

[GodsGrace]

or maybe you do not?

Salvation in the greek means to literally be rescued

We are dead to God. in a state of despair. lost without Hope.

to be saved means to be rescued from that which keeps us seperated from God. and have that relatiopnship restored.



Then we are nto saved,

which proves

1. YOU do not know what salvation is
2. YTOU think we must earn your salvation.. yet you just screamed you do not teach salvation by works. Hence you contradict yourself

Does not obey him

What is obedience? What is Gods standard?

If I obey him some times but not all times, is this obedience?

if I obey him most of the time, is this obedience worthy to earn salvation?

John said a child of God can not continually disobey him or live in sin, because they have been born of God.

why do you resist in trusting God to change you and make you his child and a person who produces fruit.. byclaiming God can fail to do what he promised?

Again, You are a LIAR. and yes I am calling you out. you continue to bear false witness I will report you (I am not ashamed to repot someone who continually and without prococation LIES about other people..

I beliebe A CHILD OF GOD OBEYS. Because GOD CHANGES THEM (trust in God)

You believe THEY CAN DISOBAY AND LOSE SALVATION. (faith in yourself)

your the one with the issue of obedience. not me

keep it up girl.. I am AMAZED YOU PREACH OBEDIENCE WHILE CONTINUALLY BREAKING ONE OF GODS COMMANDS (you shall not bare false witness) YOURSELF

Strawmen, as usual.

No comment.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

YOU called ME a liar

I JUST COUGHT YOU IN ANOTHER LIE IN MY POST TO YOU

.
YOU stated I am not saved

nO i QUESTIONED YOUR SALVATION. AND i STILL DO. If you are trusting in what you want me to believe saves me. then I doubt your salvation.

.

The way you're turning this around is the same you do when turning around the words of Jesus.

Your the one who turns his words around

Are you going to respond to my verses like i did yours?? I showed you the way, can you follow? or are you still going to hide?

Read the rules while you're waiting for a mod.

I am not changing anything

as long as you claim I did something I have not done. and claim you did something you have not done.

I will call it out

you want me to stop calling you a lair. Then stop lying

Stop saying you do things you have not done
and stop saying I have said or believe things I have proven a hundred times I do not believe or have not said.

and not just to me. to everyone else you bare false witness against

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's a dead faith BECAUSE there are no works.

see you have it backwards.

there are no works BECAUSE its a dead faith

FAITH without works is a DEAD FAITH.

It is dead faith because it is not living.

A DEAD FAITH is a FAITH without works.

yes.

do you have works. do I have works? If so. our faith is not dead.

those people had ZERO WORKS.

can that faith save them?

No matter how it's turned it means the same.

FAITH MUST HAVE WORKS or it's a DEAD FAITH.

Works are necessary for faith.
They put our faith into action....they complete our faith.

Abraham BELIEVED God and it was credited to him.

Abraham also OBEYED God and his faith was complete.

If Abraham had not obeyed God,,,,what would the result have been?

Would he have moved out of Ur?
Would he have divided the land with his nephew (and given him the best)?
Would Israel have ever existed?
Would Isaac have been as strong and determined?

Obedience to God is mandatory to our salvation.

No

FAITH PRODUCES WORKS

a CLAIMED faith that is DEAD will PRODUCE NO WORKS. proving the faith is a DEAD FAITH or a FALSE CLAIM

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The more proper translation of that verse compares lack of belief with obedience. "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not OBEY the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."

the word obey there is the gospel

The people of Israel were bitten by snakes.

They cried out to moses.

Moses cried out to God

God had moses build a serpent of bronze and hang it on the pole

The people who obeyed (trusted God and looked) were saved

those who did not obey (in unbelief did not look) died.

its not obedience in the way you legalists think it is.

Its obeying the gospel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Please find out what UNBELIEF signifies in the Greek language.

UNBELIEF = DISOBEDIENCE

To disobey means not to believe.

John 3:36 means exactly the same no matter if the word OBEY is used or not.

which proves the point

those who do not look to God in faith remain in a condemned state

those who look to the cross have their condemnation removed.

for this reason. they will never perish and will live forever.