"Works Salvation"

Isa 50:11 Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!—walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.

The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion found in Scripture.

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.
Salvation in the Tanakh (Old Covenant) was works related. The Jews ✡️ sacrificed unblemished animals whose blood was splashed and stained the tabernacle alter to cover sins. The B'rit Hadashah (New Covenant) salvation is now a free gift because now Yeshua's blood replaces the sacrificial animals blood that not only covers sins be totally removes sins so that our relationship with God is fully restored and blessed.
Shalom
 
Are you saying Abraham did not obey God?
Do you mean that because Abraham disobeyed God he was no longer considered righteous in God's sight?
Are you like some on this forum that believe we must obey God 100% or be lost?

Did Abraham not obey God from the very beginning and left his home ?

I'm not sure what you're saying.
He finally did. But not before Sarah convinced him to use Hagar!
 
Study it out then come back and tell me.
I'm asking. Barnabas was right in the sight of God. What I find wrong in some Christians is their belief that to not sin is works. The "works" that Paul referred to were the Jewish ceremonial laws fulfilled in Christ that the Judaizers were telling the Gentiles they must include to be saved.
 
I'm asking. Barnabas was right in the sight of God. What I find wrong in some Christians is their belief that to not sin is works. The "works" that Paul referred to were the Jewish ceremonial laws fulfilled in Christ that the Judaizers were telling the Gentiles they must include to be saved.
Sounds good to me.

God knows what is best for us and it's not sin. To do what God tells us to do is always what is best for us. You have heard this many times-- that we are not under the law, that Jesus fulfilled the law. He conquered sin and death through his death and resurrection. His sacrifice on the cross paid for the sins of humanity, breaking the power of sin and its relationship to death. The resurrection of Jesus proved that he conquered death, offering hope of eternal life to those who believe in Him.

He did it all.
 
breaking the power of sin and its relationship to death.
Yikes! What are you saying?

It sounds like you believe that sins unto death do not bring death anymore because "we are not under the law." It wasn't the law that was bad, it was the sin in our nature. Jesus' blood destroyed the sin in our nature leaving us clean, John 15:3. That is the only reason we no longer need the law. Galatians 3:19 To believe Jesus took away the law so we could sin without death is heretical. Do you know any denomination who believes that lie?
 
Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.
"Or not sinning"? A true Christian does not willfully sin. It is no longer in our nature to sin. That is why Jesus came and died for us. It was to remove the sin from our nature that has been in all humans since Adam sinned. Once gone we are then able to partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4. The divine nature does not sin.
 
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Look at the context..this verse doesn't stand alone
Amen! In context, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith (says/claims to have faith) that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) *Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works/saved by grace through faith, not works. Hence, faith (righly understand) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Plain and simple.
 
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Isa 50:11 Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!—walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.

The fact that salvation is by the grace of God and not by man’s works is a conclusion found in Scripture.

Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves.
Two comments.

1. How is doing good works related to sinning?


2. Your last line is interesting. You stated that doing good works - what Jesus commanded - is taking the burden of salvation upon ourselves.

Note what Jesus said about burdens:


Luke 9:23
23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take
up his cross daily * and follow Me.


Those who believe as you do must necessarily omit many verses from their repertoire.
 
Amen! In context, James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith (says/claims to have faith) that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) *Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works/saved by grace through faith, not works. Hence, faith (righly understand) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Plain and simple.
Dan,,,I gave @360watt a page full of scripture that agrees with James.
Apparently you didn't see that page or agree with it.

Because you OMIT verses you do not like from the bible.
 
Great question:

Should I obey Jesus' Command to Israel and the twelve?:
"one thing thou lackest...sell All / take up cross / follow Jesus"
(Mark 10:17-23) ???​

or? Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Should I obey Jesus' Command to Paul, for The Body Of Christ?
Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)

or (ALL of Jesus' Commands 'applicable?' to ALL people???):

Obey BOTH, Correct?

More "Rightly Divided" Commands are here:

I have decided to follow Jesus?

Amen.

View attachment 2073
How are you dividing the word of God if it sounds from your posts that we are not required to obey Jesus?
THIS is the problem I have with those that seem to speak against good works.

THIS is all Jesus taught in years of His ministry.

All of Jesus commands are for ALL of His believers.

Could you show me one command of His that is for the Jews only??

I read the link...I STILL don't understand your position.

Jesus said to be baptized.

It wounds like you believe it's not necessary to be baptized.
Am I wrong about this?

Can't continue until I understand your position better.
(not that I'M the one that needs to understand it).
 
Sounds good to me.

God knows what is best for us and it's not sin. To do what God tells us to do is always what is best for us. You have heard this many times-- that we are not under the law, that Jesus fulfilled the law. He conquered sin and death through his death and resurrection. His sacrifice on the cross paid for the sins of humanity, breaking the power of sin and its relationship to death. The resurrection of Jesus proved that he conquered death, offering hope of eternal life to those who believe in Him.

He did it all.
seek after things of the spirit

2 greatest commands. (LOVE)

this is how we overcome.. If we do these things, sin will not cross our mind.

its when we stop focusing on these things and focusing on self and our circumstances and our needs that temptation creeps in.

The law can not stop us from sin. It will convict us however, if we fall
 
Yikes! What are you saying?

It sounds like you believe that sins unto death do not bring death anymore because "we are not under the law." It wasn't the law that was bad, it was the sin in our nature. Jesus' blood destroyed the sin in our nature leaving us clean, John 15:3. That is the only reason we no longer need the law. Galatians 3:19 To believe Jesus took away the law so we could sin without death is heretical. Do you know any denomination who believes that lie?
col 2 states he removed what was against us, contrary to us, and nailed it to the cross.

Sin has now power over us, because it can not condemn us anymore hence we are no longer bound to it.

The law is gone. No longer do we need anual animal sacrifice to pay for sin of the previous year. Jesus died once.

we do not get saved, then lose salvation every time we sin and need resaved. if this is what you are saying this worries me, If not. Can you explain?
 
"Or not sinning"? A true Christian does not willfully sin. It is no longer in our nature to sin. That is why Jesus came and died for us. It was to remove the sin from our nature that has been in all humans since Adam sinned. Once gone we are then able to partake of the divine nature of God. 2 Peter 1:2-4. The divine nature does not sin.
we do not willfully sin? Says who?

are you saying we make oopsies. we sin on accident?

We do not by nature sin, amen, But we willfully sin often.. If you do not think you do. then I am worried.
 
Dan,,,I gave @360watt a page full of scripture that agrees with James.
Apparently you didn't see that page or agree with it.

Because you OMIT verses you do not like from the bible.
No maam, He does not do this, you do

I have posted numerous verses to you now multiple times that cause your interpretation of verses you keep trying to post cause massive contradiction in the word.

yet you have failed continually to address them

You do not get to accuse someone else of ignoring your verses. when you have ignored mine multiple times
 
Jesus does obviously want good works from us..but salvation itself isn't achieved by those works. Eternal salvation and daily service are separate things.
yes

works flow from the love of God. we love because he first loved us

Works flow from our new nature. we were dogs. who loved to eat our vomit (sin) now we are new creatures. and sin is poison to us (those saved understand this, and the conviction of God when we fall into sin)

works flow from gratitude. God saved us, and gave us something we could never earn (eternal life and forgiveness of all sin) out of gratitude. we want to serve others and share this with them (produce fruit)

works flow from faith, we trusted God for our eternity. now we learn to trust him with things here on earth

finally., works are a byproduct of Gods work in us. christian growth or sanctification is produced by Gods work in our lives. For by one offering he has perfected forever (the reason and power we work) those who are being sanctified, we do not even sanctify ourself, God does. While we have to respond to this work of God. it is God who gets the glory, not us.. because it is his work in us.. (even if this work is God chastening us because we have sinned, or are not doing what he wants0
 
How about these. Please show us the works required

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN


Titus 1: 2
in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN
I've replied to the above more than once.

The simple reply is:
What does BELIEVE mean?

Apparently some do not know what it means or they do not want to know what it means.

Plus,,,,you're ADDING to scripture.
I posted from the letter to Titus saying exactly the opposite of what you think Titus 3:4 means.
So either Paul doesn't know his own theology, or there's a misunderstanding in scripture, or you're not considering all of the NT.

Jesus taught that we are to do good works.
Jesus taught that we are to obey Him.

Simple.
 
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