"Works Salvation"
- Thread starter Seabass
- Start date
Complete
Active Member
'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written,
.. that ye might believe
.... that Jesus is the Christ,
...... the Son of God;
........ and that believing
.......... ye might have life
............ through His name.'
(John 20:30-31)
Hello @Seabass,
Yes I agree that we should take into account the testimony of all Scripture. Yet John's words, quoted (above), are so beautifully concise, and complete in themselves.
* The word of God enters the heart of the hearer and the seed of faith is sown: The work of God has begun: A work that He will continue to do through the Holy Spirit, until the day of Christ. We are His workmanship. All we do is believe God concerning His Beloved Son, His person and His work, and His righteousness is imputed unto us.
* Believing in itself is an act of faith.
'Faith cometh by hearing
and hearing by the Word of God'
(Rom. 10:17)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hosanna
Active Member
An unsaved person can repent of their wrong thinking but not there actions.
Repent and believe in the gospel’” (Mark 1:14–15. Jesus’ exhortation for His listeners to repent indicated that they needed to change their minds. That He told them to believe in the gospel indicated how they needed to change their minds.
When an unsaved person hears the gospel they can choose to believe in what Christ did on the cross. Once they choose to believe and become a Christian they are able to repent from their actions, their old Life of sin.
What is repentance from sin? It is “Right About Face!” It implies that a person walking in one direction has not only turned around, but is actually walking in an exactly opposite direction.
That can only happen after you believe in Jesus and are saved. You can't do any good works until after you're saved.
charismaticlady
Active Member
Question: I see that you used the phrase "imputed" righteous. Do you believe you still sin and the blood of Jesus covers that sin and the Father does not see it?
I've heard people say this and I always wondered which denomination teaches that. Do you know?
Hosanna
Active Member
Sorry I couldn't help butting in. That last question about the father not seeing our sin after our salvation. It made me think of Satan the Accuser of the brethren. For the time being, God has allowed Satan the accuser limited access to heaven. I think that remains an effect until.... "For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down’” (Revelation 12:10). Satan is relentless in his accusations—he accuses God’s children continually.
But...
“For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.” When we come to Christ as broken sinners, He exchanges our sin for His righteousness.
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21
Rather than seeing my sin, God sees the righteousness of His Son. He sees me as justified, redeemed, sanctified, even glorified.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:30
charismaticlady
Active Member
I've been thinking about when Satan is cast out of heaven recently too. Go back up to Revelation 12:5. The "Child" returning to heaven is after His resurrection from being crucified. I now believe it is right then that there is war in heaven, because according to 1 John 3:8 Jesus destroyed the works of the devil. He was probably accusing the Jews left and right because he owned them according to their sin nature. Jesus took the sin out of our nature to sin no more. It is not just "covered."
Also, what was predestinated was not who, but each child of God would be conformed to the likeness of Christ.
Complete
Active Member
Hello @charismaticlady,
Thank you for responding.
I do not belong to a denomination, Regarding sin, I simply believe what is written in such verses as 1 John 1:8; and live in the light of Romans 6:11.
The imputation of righteousness is explained in Romans 4:13-25.
* Forgive me, but I have no time to say more.
Within the love of Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
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charismaticlady
Active Member
I don't know where you live but you probably are reading 1 John 1:8 with a western mindset, and don't understand the style of an Middle Eastern Apostle. You have to read chapters one and two. 1 John 2:4 shows you what 1 John 1:8 actually means. It is a contrast between those who walk the walk verses those who lie and just talk the talk.Hello @charismaticlady,
Thank you for responding.
I do not belong to a denomination: and I simply believe what is written in such verses as 1 John 1:8 in regard to sin: and live in the light of Romans 6:11 in regard to it. The imputation of righteousness is explained in Romans 4:13-25.
* Forgive me, but I have no time to say more.
Within the love of Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Besides if what 1:8 implies is that we will never be free from committing sin, that contradicts the rest of the gospel. John also said why he was writing - 1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin.
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Complete
Active Member
Hello @charismaticlady,
Well I have to investigate your meaning now, otherwise I will not sleep, so here goes.
* The structure of the two chapters you refer to in 1 John, show us what John is saying and why:-
1:1-5 Cause of writing
1:6-10 Test of fellowship
2:1-2 Cause of writing
2:3-6 Test of knowing God.
2:7-8 Cause of writing
2:9-11 Test of being in the Light
2:12-14 Cause of writing
2:15-17 Test of loving God
1 John 1:8 comes in:- 'the test of fellowship'. 1 John 2:4 comes in:- 'the test of knowing God.'
* 1 John 2:4 does not negate 1 John 1:8. but, Praise God! :-
'If we walk in the light as He is in the light,
we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son
cleanseth us from all sin.'
(1 John 1:9)
* John's epistle is practical teaching in the light of the love of God. God is Life, Light, Truth, Righteous and Love, and we have fellowship with Him through the Lord Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit. 'We know that He abideth in us by the spirit which He hath given us' (3:24) .
* John sets in contrast the death, darkness, falsehood and hate which are the characteristics of the devil who, 'sinneth from the beginning' (3:8), and of those who are led by the spirit of error (4:6), with the work of the Holy Spirit in believers.
* The conception running throughout this epistle is that of the love which constrains us, as it also constrained Paul (2 Cor. 5:14):-
'For the love of Christ constraineth us;
.. because we thus judge,
.... that if one died for all, then were all dead:
And that He died for all,
.. that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves,
.... but unto Him which died for them, and rose again.
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh:
.. yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,
.... yet now henceforth know we Him no more.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.'
(2 Cor. 5:14-17)
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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charismaticlady
Active Member
This doesn't seem to make sense. The blue is verse 7, not 8 or 9, so what does that prove about 8?
The Eastern reading sees two contrasts. Light vs. Darkness; and "talk the talk" vs. "walk the walk." Chapter 3 is also a chapter of contrasts.
5 LIGHT
6 (SAY) DARKNESS
7 WALK IN LIGHT
8 (SAY) DARKNESS
9 TO BECOME A CHRISTIAN
10 (SAY) DARKNESS
I've read a lot of commentaries that quite frankly are out to lunch.
If you don't believe Jesus takes away our sin 1 John 3:5 because you believe the western misunderstanding of 1:8 isn't that a slap in Jesus' face? I would think again if I were you.
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All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and God is sovereign, so all of God's laws are still in effect and we are all under them, and not just ten of them. Someone who says that God's law is only for sinners in order to justify their freedom to do that God's law reveals to be sin thereby becomes someone that God's law is for.
Complete
Active Member
'We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Gal 2:15-20)
'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ,
we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Who loved me, and gave Hmself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness come by the law,
then Christ is dead in vain.'
(Gal 2:17)
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,
but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
(Gal 2:15-20)
'But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ,
we ourselves also are found sinners,
is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by the faith of the Son of God,
Who loved me, and gave Hmself for me.
I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness come by the law,
then Christ is dead in vain.'
(Gal 2:17)
Complete
Active Member
Hello @charismaticlady,
Please discuss the subject concerned and do not resort to personal remarks, for it is so unnecessary, and only creates strife.
Would you please refer me to a copy of the 'eastern' rendering of 1 John that you refer to, and I will be glad to compare it, that I may understand what you are saying.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Seabass
Active Member
A person has not repented unless, until they have changed their actions.
Unsaved people are able to do good works and do good works all the time. Atheists can do good works....give to the needy, feed the hungry, visit the sick, yet good works do not save...it takes obedience to God in believing, repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and being baptized for emission of sins.
Those Peter preached to in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead but they were not 'totally depraved" unable to do well...for they were willing and able to listen to Peter, able to understand what he preached, be pricked in their hearts and obey Peter's words by repenting and being baptized for remission of sins.... all while in a lost state.
Seabass
Active Member
On one hand you say "we should take into account the testimony of all Scripture" but then claim 2 verses in Jn 20:30-31 are "complete".
John says NOTHING about repenting of sins in these 2 verses so the impenitent will be saved contrary to what Christ said in Lk 13:3 or Paul in Rom 2:4-5?? John says NOTHING about confessing Christ, so those who refuse to confess Christ (Jn 12:42) will be saved contrary to Matt 10:32-33, Rom 10:9-10? John says NOTHING about being baptized yet baptism is the means as to how one is "in Christ" (Gal 3:27), have sins remitted (Acts 2:38) yet people can be saved outside of Christ while still in their sins?
I agree with you the believing is an act, it's not just mental assent of the mind. Since the BIble teaches repentnace saves, confession saves, baptism saves and there is just one way to be saved and the Bible does not contradict itself, then NT belief MUST include repentance, confession and baptism else it is a dead, worthless belief. There were those who believed but would not confess (Jn 12:42) hence their belief only, that is, their belief void of confession could not save them.
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Seabass
Active Member
You have a person saved BEFORE they repent of sins??? Not possible for the impenitent are lost and remain lost unless/until they repent of sins Lk 13:3; Rom 2:4-5. Baptism is for remission of sins, (Acts 2:38; 22:16) yet you have one saved BEFORE sins are remitted? Not possible.
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Seabass
Active Member
I do not find anything in this statement of yours supported by scripture. Man is not born with a 'sin nature" whereby he only do wrong, Man is capable of choosing to do right or not do right, (Gen 4:7)
The BIble does not teach original sin, that is false construct of man, Augustine. Such an idea would make man a victim of sin and give man an excuse for his sin when neither is true.
John is NOT saying it is impossible for a Christian to sin for Christians do sin (1 Jn 1:8) but a Christian is one who cannot contnue living in sin.
Complete
Active Member
'And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of His disciples,
which are not written in this book:
But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life
through His name.'
(Joh 20:30-31)
Hello @Seabass,
John's gospel consists of a series of witness statements and accounts that prove that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The acknowledgement of the Lord Jesus Christ in this capacity is sufficient for God to receive the believer in His Name. For salvation is not of works that none should boast. All is of Christ. Figuratively He is the Ark, our security against the waters of judgment to come. In Him we have life, and peace with God.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Seabass
Active Member
You press hard to push the faith only agenda forcing you to avoid salvific verses as Lk 13:9, Mt 10:32-33 and Mk 16:16 that make salvation impossible apart from repentance confession and baptism. What John wrote is only a small PART of the NT, not all of it.
When the Bible says salvation is not of works, it refers to works of merit one could boast about this is not referring to obedience to God's will for for the disobedient, rebellious, unrighteous are lost. Obedience to God is nothing to boast about, Lk 17:7-10
John also said:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22
Keeping God's commands is a work....a work of obedience not a work of merit and salvation is impossible apart from obedience. John says those who continue to NOT DO righteousness continue to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10
The obedience one does BEFORE one is saved in believing, repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism are no more works of merit than the obedience one does AFTER one is saved in keeping Christ's commands are works of merit.
Hosanna
Active Member
Good works done before salvation are like filthy rags.
The phrase "your righteousness is filthy rags" comes from Isaiah 64:6, where the prophet confesses the sinfulness of the people and their need for God's salvation. It means that human efforts to please God or earn His favor are worthless and polluted by sin. Only the righteousness of Jesus, which is given to those who trust in Him, can cover our sin And make us acceptable to God.
The phrase "your righteousness is filthy rags" comes from Isaiah 64:6, where the prophet confesses the sinfulness of the people and their need for God's salvation. It means that human efforts to please God or earn His favor are worthless and polluted by sin. Only the righteousness of Jesus, which is given to those who trust in Him, can cover our sin And make us acceptable to God.
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