"Works Salvation"

[Studyman]

A person has not repented unless, until they have changed their actions.

Unsaved people are able to do good works and do good works all the time. Atheists can do good works....give to the needy, feed the hungry, visit the sick, yet good works do not save...it takes obedience to God in believing, repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and being baptized for emission of sins.

This is a great point, and one that really needs to be understood, in my view. Paul says;

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression of God's commandments) unto death, or of obedience (Keeping God's Commandments) unto righteousness?

So when a person continues in their definition of "Good", according to this world's religion's definition of Good, but by tradition, Transgress God's definition, that is still Sin, and it still leads to death, and still need to be repented from, even in those "many" who call Jesus their Lord.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Ye that reject God's definition of God, so you can walk in your own)

The mainstream religion of Jerusalem, in Christ's Time, believed they did Good. Jesus also tells us that "many", when HE comes back, who call Him their Savior/Lord, will also be convinced they "Do good" as the verse I have posted warns.

But it's God's Definition of Good, not our own, that is Holy, Just, and Good. Our definition of Good is a filthy rag. As the Christ, "when HE was up where HE was before", teaches.

Is. 48: 16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. 18 O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:

And again, after becoming a man.

Matt. 11: 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Those Peter preached to in Acts 2 were lost, spiritually dead but they were not 'totally depraved" unable to do well...for they were willing and able to listen to Peter, able to understand what he preached, be pricked in their hearts and obey Peter's words by repenting and being baptized for remission of sins.... all while in a lost state.

Wouldn't those who heard but didn't believe also be "able to do well", but just didn't care enough to believe what Peter was saying?

I think Paul even addresses this.

Rom. 11: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, (Disobedient, unbelieving Jews, Yes?) take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in "his" goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. (Just as the Jews who Jesus said "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition)

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

A "New Man" must surely seek the Kingdom of God, and "God's Righteousness", not this world's religions definition, in order to learn God's definition of Good, that Paul said HE "Before Ordained" that we should walk in them.


Great post Seabass.

 

[civic]

If one is going to study a Bible subject such as salvation, then one must study ALL the verses that deal with salvation to COMPELTELY AND CORRECTLY understand the subject. Simply cherry picking verses that mention "believing" while ignoring other salvific verses that teach repentance, confession and baptism will leave one in error and lack of understanding. The same Jesus that said to believe in Jn 3:16 also said to repent Lk 13:3; confess ; Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized Mk 16:16.

One cannot only read the first sentence of the first paragraph of a Hemingway novel then declare they know all about the plot, characters, events, etc. One must read ALL the novel to have a complete understanding of it. Likewise one cannot read one verse that deals with salvation then claim to know ALL their is to know about NT salvation.

Paul did not shun the declare ALL the counsel of God (Acts 20:27). Very rarely does just one verse exhaust all their is to know about a particular subject. A 'one verse' theology leaves one incomplete in understanding. "Cherry picking" verses while ignoring other verses also leaves one incomplete in understanding and shows one has an agenda to promote a personal bias rather than 'declare all the counsel of God' for a complete and correct understanding.

There is no getting around that faith/repentance are two sides of the same coin regarding salvation taught in both the Old and New Testaments. The debate is over baptism and salvation. Baptism by water comes as a result of salvation not a means of salvation. Many conflate the spiritual baptism with water baptism and there is a difference between them. Also the book of Acts is a historical record that is unique in NT literature since is what the Holy Spirit did through the Apostles. The Apostles were a unique and specific group chosen by Jesus for a specific purpose as God was still revealing to them in a prophetic manner that accompanied miracles, signs and wonders to authenticate their message came from God. Acts is not a doctrinal letter for the church like the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Seabass]

Good works done before salvation are like filthy rags.

The phrase "your righteousness is filthy rags" comes from Isaiah 64:6, where the prophet confesses the sinfulness of the people and their need for God's salvation. It means that human efforts to please God or earn His favor are worthless and polluted by sin. Only the righteousness of Jesus, which is given to those who trust in Him, can cover our sin And make us acceptable to God.

Good works cannot save an atheist but obedience to God's will can save.....and obedience is not filty rags to God fot God meets, helps, entreats those who work righteousness Isa 64:5....God accepts those who work righteousness (Acts 10:35).

Therefore Isa 64:6-7 cannot be applied universally to all people for it is specifically speaking about Israel at a time when Israel was living in sin, rebellion to God...."and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" and "thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities". All the sacrifices, prayers, offerings, etc Israel had done were polluted, contaminated, defiled, unclean before God because of the sin/rebellion they were living in against God.

 

[Seabass]

Wouldn't those who heard but didn't believe also be "able to do well", but just didn't care enough to believe what Peter was saying?

The opposite of those in Acts 2 can be found in Acts 7. Those in Acts 7 were willing to hear Stephen preach and able to understand what he preached but unlike those in Acts 2 they chose to hate what Stephen preached. Instead of being pricked in their hearts they were cut in their heart and murdered Stephen. Upon hearing God's word people can choose to do right or choose to do wrong.

 

[Hosanna]

Good works cannot save an atheist but obedience to God's will can save.....and obedience is not filty rags to God fot God meets, helps, entreats those who work righteousness Isa 64:5....God accepts those who work righteousness (Acts 10:35).

Therefore Isa 64:6-7 cannot be applied universally to all people for it is specifically speaking about Israel at a time when Israel was living in sin, rebellion to God...."and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" and "thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities". All the sacrifices, prayers, offerings, etc Israel had done were polluted, contaminated, defiled, unclean before God because of the sin/rebellion they were living in against God.

Obedience to God's will can't save anyone. The blood of Jesus shed on the cross is what saves us. If the righteousness of God's chosen people was like filthy rags than any righteousness the rest of the population could come up with would be worse than that.

 

[Studyman]

Good works done before salvation are like filthy rags.

Your definition of good works, and my definition of Good Works are a filthy rag. But not God's definition. God's definition of Good Works "IS Righteousness". They don't become filthy rags, just because a man humbles himself in obedience to God and walks in them. If this were true, than Jesus qualified to take my sin by covering Himself with filthy rags.

I know this is taught by "many" who come in Christ's Name, but the Scriptutres teach no such thing. The God inspired Scriptures knew this teaching would be promoted and warned of this very thing.

1 John 3: 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

(Beware of the Leaven" of the mainstream preachers of our time)

The phrase "your righteousness is filthy rags" comes from Isaiah 64:6, where the prophet confesses the sinfulness of the people and their need for God's salvation. It means that human efforts to please God or earn His favor are worthless and polluted by sin. Only the righteousness of Jesus, which is given to those who trust in Him, can cover our sin And make us acceptable to God.

Is. 46: 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for (because) thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Their "Redeemer" didn't hide His face from them, because they walked in God's righteousness. Consider EVERY Example of Faith given in the Entire Bible, and show me just one who didn't strive to honor God with obedience.

Just turn the page and read what God said about the same people Isaiah spoke about.

Is. 64:2 I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; 3 A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; 4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; 5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.


I know that both you and I were taught by this world's religions, that Isaiah is saying

It means that human efforts to please God or earn His favor are worthless and polluted by sin.

But this is simply untrue. There was no effort to Seek God, or please God or earn His Favor by those who fell in the wilderness. Listen to what God is saying through Isaiah.
64: 11 But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

12 Therefore (Because of this) will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, (Wait, who are His Servants?) but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, (Wait, did these also walk in their own righteousness?) but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. 15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

I appreciate the post, but shouldn't we consider Isaiah's other words, and not just this one sentence?

IS. 1: 10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah. (He is talking to the Jews here)

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

I hope you might consider.

 

[Seabass]

There is no getting around that faith/repentance are two sides of the same coin regarding salvation taught in both the Old and New Testaments. The debate is over baptism and salvation. Baptism by water comes as a result of salvation not a means of salvation. Many conflate the spiritual baptism with water baptism and there is a difference between them. Also the book of Acts is a historical record that is unique in NT literature since is what the Holy Spirit did through the Apostles. The Apostles were a unique and specific group chosen by Jesus for a specific purpose as God was still revealing to them in a prophetic manner that accompanied miracles, signs and wonders to authenticate their message came from God. Acts is not a doctrinal letter for the church like the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John.

hope this helps !!!

Water baptism is 1) commanded 2) for the remission of sins which means salvation is not possile before one is baptized.

--The fact water baptism has been commanded makes it necessary if for no other reason. Disobedience to God's commands is sin, unrighteousness and one must obey God's commands, 'work righteousness" to be accepted with God (Acts 10:35), As long as one continues to not do righteousness, one continues to not be of God, 1 Jn 3:10

--Water baptism is FOR the remission of sins. It has never been proven nor ever will be proven that the Greek word eis means 'because'.

(1)
in Acts 2:38 repent is tied to baptized with the conjunction 'and'. If eis mean 'because' then the verse is saying one repents because one is already saved which makes no sense and is impossible since the impenitent are lost (Rom 2:4-5).

(2)
if they were saved prior to being baptized per verse 38 then why does Peter tell them to "save yourselves" in verse 40 if they were already saved prior to v38? If they were saved prior to v38 can you pinpoint the verse and prove how and why they were saved in that verse.

(3)
Acts 2:41
"Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:"

The logical implication is those who rejected the gospel words as spoken by Peter rejected being baptized. People who reject baptism are rejecting the gospel message. Had those Jews rejected being baptized they would have rejected the gospel and remain lost.

(4)
Peter quotes Joel's propehecy in v21
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

This prophecy was fulfilled in v38:

whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord >>>>>>>>>>>>>> saved
repent and be baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remission of sins/saved

a)
calling on the name of the Lord means doing what the Lord says to do (Lk 6:46) Jesus is Lord of those who do what He says. Disobedience to the Lord's commands is sin, unrighteouness hence not obeying the Lord's commands to repent and be baptized leaves one lost. One who continues to not to righteousness continues to not be of God (1 Jn 3:10). One must work righteousness, obey God's commands to be accepted with God (Acts 10:35). So rejecting baptism is rejecting the word, rejecting Christ as Lord leaving one unacceptable with God.

b)
per Joel's prophecy, does one call upon the name of the Lord IN ORDER to be saved OR does one call upon the name of the Lord BECAUSE he is already saved? Obviously one calls upon the name of the Lord IN ORDER to be saved. Since the prophecy is IN ORDER to be saved then the fulfillment would also be IN ORDER to be saved, thus:


prophecy -call upon the name of the Lord IN ORDER to be saved
fulfillment - repent and be baptized IN ORDER to have remission of sins/saved

 

[Studyman]

The opposite of those in Acts 2 can be found in Acts 7. Those in Acts 7 were willing to hear Stephen preach and able to understand what he preached but unlike those in Acts 2 they chose to hate what Stephen preached. Instead of being pricked in their hearts they were cut in their heart and murdered Stephen. Upon hearing God's word people can choose to do right or choose to do wrong.

Yes, all men in Act's were able to repent and turn to God, but some chose the religions and religious traditions of their fathers which transgressed God's commandments, over the teaching of the Law and Prophets that Peter promoted. (as their fathers did, so do they)

Acts 5: 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,

28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, (The Pharisees taught for Doctrines, the commandments of Men, not God) and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.

29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts is such a great book of Witness.

 

[Seabass]

Obedience to God's will can't save anyone. The blood of Jesus shed on the cross is what saves us. If the righteousness of God's chosen people was like filthy rags than any righteousness the rest of the population could come up with would be worse than that.

One is either obeying God or disobeying God, no middle ground no other options.

Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY Him Heb 5:9. The disobedient are lost, the obedient saved

Those who OBEY NOT are the ones in flaming fire 2 Thess 1:8.

Nowhere ever in the BIble is the obedience of a righteous man ever called filty rags, ever. Again, God ACCEPTS those who work righteousness not treat their righteousness as filty rags rehecting them. Again Isa 54"6-7 spplirs only to Isreal when they were in iniquity and does not apply to all men universally.

 

[charismaticlady]

Hello @charismaticlady,

Please discuss the subject concerned and do not resort to personal remarks, for it is so unnecessary, and only creates strife.

Would you please refer me to a copy of the 'eastern' rendering of 1 John that you refer to, and I will be glad to compare it, that I may understand what you are saying.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The words are the same, but when a word is used over and over in a chapter, it is considered a key word. That word in chapter 1 is "say." The second chapter shows the key in verse 4, that it is meant negatively. 1 John 4:1-3 shows the doctrine of the gnostics, and they had a problem of them infiltrating churches. So the "we" in chapter 1 includes them as being in the Church, but you find in chapter 2 were never of the Church.

John does this a lot. In the gospel of John chapter 17 in Jesus prayer to the Father regarding His apostles we find another key word, "give." It shows the predestination of the Apostles only. And that predestination is not about salvation, per se, because the Father also gave Judas to Jesus knowing his character. The Father gave particular men to Jesus as apostles. Then further down in 17 we see Jesus pray for those who would hear the words of the Apostles - us. The word "gave" or "give" "given" is not there. So if you find anywhere else in that book that the Father is the one who gives someone to Jesus, you know John is speaking of the apostles. This key word style in particular in the Middle East has caused bad doctrines in the western Church for centuries.

Here is a verse about what I mean that has started the bad doctrines like OSAS, and predestination for everyone and meaning salvation, and not just the apostles.

John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I found out about these writing styles of the Jews decades ago from a Jewish Christian scholar, and it is fun to find them and know what is the true meaning of the author. These are the Semitic writing styles of synonymous parallelisms. They can be contrasts as found in 1 John, or alike as in Acts 4:33 that shows an example of an "alike." The word "great" is the key word, and what is written immediately with it are synonyms. It shows the apostles meaning of God's grace as Power. It is not the "license to sin" meaning behind "unmerited favor" in the western Church. The New Covenant has Jesus' gospel of grace, and Romans 1:16-17 shows that gospel is the power of God. Romans 1:8 shows this power is connected with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This Jewish scholar and another Jewish scholar wrote a book about this. The title is something like "Understanding the hard sayings of Jesus." They also had a magazine I received via email called the Jerusalem Perspective.

This is one reason I gave up being a member of a western denomination.

 

[Eleazar]

In Romans 3:28, justification is “by faith” apart from the works of the law.

For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.] Romans 3:28

In Romans 4:2–3, if Abraham were justified by works he might boast; instead, he “put faith” in God and was accounted righteous.

For if Abraham was justified (established as just by acquittal from guilt) by good works [that he did, then] he has grounds for boasting. But not before God! 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God). Romans 4:2–3

In Romans 4:4–5, for one who “works” any reward is reckoned by obligation, whereas for one believing his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him).
5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God). Romans 4:4–5

 

[civic]

The words are the same, but when a word is used over and over in a chapter, it is considered a key word. That word in chapter 1 is "say." The second chapter shows the key in verse 4. John does this a lot. In the gospel of John chapter 17 in Jesus prayer to the Father regarding His apostles we find another key word, "give." It shows the predestination of the Apostles only. The Father gave particular men to Jesus as apostles. Then further down in 17 we see Jesus pray for those who would hear the words of the Apostles. The word "gave" or "give" is not there. So if you find anywhere else in that book that the Father is the one who gives someone to Jesus, you know John is speaking of the apostles. This key word in particular has caused bad doctrines in the western Church.

Here is a verse about what I mean that has started the bad doctrines like OSAS, and predestination for everyone, and not just the apostles.

John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

Yes there are things Jesus said to His 12 that were meant specifically for them and are not universal in application as some try and make them out to be.

 

[charismaticlady]

Yes there are things Jesus said to His 12 that were meant specifically for them and are not universal in application as some try and make them out to be.

I edited in more, so go back and read the following paragraphs.

 

[charismaticlady]

All of God's righteous laws are eternal (Psalms 119:160) and God is sovereign, so all of God's laws are still in effect and we are all under them, and not just ten of them. Someone who says that God's law is only for sinners in order to justify their freedom to do that God's law reveals to be sin thereby becomes someone that God's law is for.

That sure would be an unrighteous thing to do. LOL But I understand. No, a license to sin is not what Paul said or meant, but people have taken the middle chapters out of context of the eight chapter teaching on the Law vs. Spirit in Romans and made doctrines of men. The truth is in a nutshell, because mankind was evil, God gave mankind (through the Jews) laws to guard them UNTIL Jesus came to deal with the problem of sin once and for all by destroying the works of the devil in mankind. This cleansing is available to all who turn to him and are born again by the Holy Spirit, emphasis on "holy." Can you see that is the opposite of what you suppose?

 

[Complete]

You press hard to push the faith only agenda forcing you to avoid salvific verses as Lk 13:9, Mt 10:32-33 and Mk 16:16 that make salvation impossible apart from repentance confession and baptism. What John wrote is only a small PART of the NT, not all of it.

When the Bible says salvation is not of works, it refers to works of merit one could boast about this is not referring to obedience to God's will for for the disobedient, rebellious, unrighteous are lost. Obedience to God is nothing to boast about, Lk 17:7-10

John also said:
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22

Keeping God's commands is a work....a work of obedience not a work of merit and salvation is impossible apart from obedience. John says those who continue to NOT DO righteousness continue to NOT be of God, 1 Jn 3:10

The obedience one does BEFORE one is saved in believing, repenting of sins, confessing with the mouth and submitting to baptism are no more works of merit than the obedience one does AFTER one is saved in keeping Christ's commands are works of merit.

Hello @Seabass,

Thank you for your response.

The subject of this thread is 'salvation by works'. I know of no such salvation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charismaticlady]

In Romans 3:28, justification is “by faith” apart from the works of the law.

For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.] Romans 3:28

In Romans 4:2–3, if Abraham were justified by works he might boast; instead, he “put faith” in God and was accounted righteous.

For if Abraham was justified (established as just by acquittal from guilt) by good works [that he did, then] he has grounds for boasting. But not before God! 3 For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed in (trusted in) God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness (right living and right standing with God). Romans 4:2–3

In Romans 4:4–5, for one who “works” any reward is reckoned by obligation, whereas for one believing his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

Now to a laborer, his wages are not counted as a favor or a gift, but as an obligation (something owed to him).
5 But to one who, not working [by the Law], trusts (believes fully) in Him Who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited to him as righteousness (the standing acceptable to God). Romans 4:4–5

I see you are focusing on the middle chapters of an EIGHT chapter teaching, thus taking them out of context of the whole. If you are going to only study a chapter or two, focus on the conclusion, chapters 6 and 8.

 

[Obadiah]

I see you are focusing on the middle chapters of an EIGHT chapter teaching, thus taking them out of context of the whole. If you are going to only study a chapter or two, focus on the conclusion, chapters 6 and 8.

Actually I was only writing a post. But I appreciate your concern. I'm a definite Paul guy and to me Romans is the best book in the Bible. I've studied all the chapters in it extensively chapter 8 is my favorite.

 

[Soyeong]

That sure would be an unrighteous thing to do. LOL But I understand. No, a license to sin is not what Paul said or meant, but people have taken the middle chapters out of context of the eight chapter teaching on the Law vs. Spirit in Romans and made doctrines of men. The truth is in a nutshell, because mankind was evil, God gave mankind (through the Jews) laws to guard them UNTIL Jesus came to deal with the problem of sin once and for all by destroying the works of the devil in mankind. This cleansing is available to all who turn to him and are born again by the Holy Spirit, emphasis on "holy." Can you see that is the opposite of what you suppose?

There is no Law vs. Spirit in Romans, but that in Romans 8:4-14, those who are born again and walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of God while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of God is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of the Law of God. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of God, which is the same for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of God. This straightforwardly makes sense because the Law of God was given by God and the Spirit is God.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus did not come with the message to stop repenting from our transgressions of God's law because the Law of God has ended now that he has come, but rather he came with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand. We can't turn to God's word made flesh by rejecting God's word, but rather repenting and returning to obedience to God's word is the way to turn towards God's word made flesh. In 1 John 3:4-10, those who continue to practice sin in transgressions the Law of God have neither seen nor known him and those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to it are not born again. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purity for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross in accordance with the Gospel (Titus 2:14).

 

[Complete]

The words are the same, but when a word is used over and over in a chapter, it is considered a key word. That word in chapter 1 is "say." The second chapter shows the key in verse 4, that it is meant negatively. 1 John 4:1-3 shows the doctrine of the gnostics, and they had a problem of them infiltrating churches. So the "we" in chapter 1 includes them as being in the Church, but you find in chapter 2 were never of the Church.

John does this a lot. In the gospel of John chapter 17 in Jesus prayer to the Father regarding His apostles we find another key word, "give." It shows the predestination of the Apostles only. And that predestination is not about salvation, per se, because the Father also gave Judas to Jesus knowing his character. The Father gave particular men to Jesus as apostles. Then further down in 17 we see Jesus pray for those who would hear the words of the Apostles - us. The word "gave" or "give" "given" is not there. So if you find anywhere else in that book that the Father is the one who gives someone to Jesus, you know John is speaking of the apostles. This key word style in particular in the Middle East has caused bad doctrines in the western Church for centuries.

Here is a verse about what I mean that has started the bad doctrines like OSAS, and predestination for everyone and meaning salvation, and not just the apostles.

John 10: 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

I found out about these writing styles of the Jews decades ago from a Jewish Christian scholar, and it is fun to find them and know what is the true meaning of the author. These are the Semitic writing styles of synonymous parallelisms. They can be contrasts as found in 1 John, or alike as in Acts 4:33 that shows an example of an "alike." The word "great" is the key word, and what is written immediately with it are synonyms. It shows the apostles meaning of God's grace as Power. It is not the "license to sin" meaning behind "unmerited favor" in the western Church. The New Covenant has Jesus' gospel of grace, and Romans 1:16-17 shows that gospel is the power of God. Romans 1:8 shows this power is connected with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

This Jewish scholar and another Jewish scholar wrote a book about this. The title is something like "Understanding the hard sayings of Jesus." They also had a magazine I received via email called the Jerusalem Perspective.

This is one reason I gave up being a member of a western denomination.

Hello @charismaticlady,

Thank you for your response, and for kindly informing me of these Jewish writing styles. I have found a book entitled, 'Understanding the hard sayings of Jesus' online at, https://preachingsource.com/journal/understanding-the-hard-sayings-of jesus/, & https://preachingsource.com/sermon-structure/1-john-1-5-10/ - is this what you are referring to?

* I also have a book in my possession which has a section on synonymous parallelisms within Scripture, so I shall take a look at that first, and hopefully come back to you.

* Quote from the link above re. 1 John 1:-

John teaches that if we say we have no sin, two things result. First, we are self–deceived.​

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The second result is “the truth is not in us.” This refers to the truth of the Gospel.​

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1 John 1:9 is the second mitigated exhortation in this paragraph (1:7 was the first). The conditional clause “if we confess our sins” carries the force of a mitigated command: “we should confess our sins.” Instead of a direct imperative telling us to confess our sins, John chooses a less direct method of pressing on us the necessity of confession of sin to God when we as Christians sin.​

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In verse 10 we find the third “if we say” statement. Here John addresses the concept of committing individual acts of sin. John writes: “If we say we have not sinned.” Notice the word “sinned” is a verb whose tense (perfect) expresses the notion “we do not commit acts of sin.”​

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There is something of a progression in these verses. In verse 6, you become a liar; in verse 8, you deceive yourself; and in verse 10, you make God out to be a liar. Notice also how verse 10 functions as a summary to verses 6–10 and how John semantically parallels three concepts in verses 6 and 10: “If we say – If we say;” “We lie – we make him a liar;” “and do not do the truth” – “and his word is not in us.”​

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Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Hosanna]

One is either obeying God or disobeying God, no middle ground no other options.

Jesus is the Author of salvation unto all them that OBEY Him Heb 5:9. The disobedient are lost, the obedient saved

Those who OBEY NOT are the ones in flaming fire 2 Thess 1:8.

Nowhere ever in the BIble is the obedience of a righteous man ever called filty rags, ever. Again, God ACCEPTS those who work righteousness not treat their righteousness as filty rags rehecting them. Again Isa 54"6-7 spplirs only to Isreal when they were in iniquity and does not apply to all men universally.

Those that believe in Jesus Christ are saved. Gospel

The scripture says "your righteousness is filthy rags" Which is what I posted I don't know where you're coming up with "the Obedience of a righteous man being called filthy rags". But it's definitely not what I posted.

The doctrine of total depravity is taught clearly elsewhere in Scripture Ephesians 2:1–5, and the illustration of Isaiah 64:6 could rightly be applied to the whole world, especially given Isaiah’s inclusion of himself in the description.

The Israelites were also an example for the rest of the world.

“Lover indeed of peoples” —Even though you love peoples, as it says (Exod 19:5), “you will be a treasure from all the nations,” with this you indicate that all of humanity is a treasure to you.


Was the Messiah only for the Israelites? That would kind of cancel out John 3:16 now wouldn't it?

16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in ( Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. Jn 3:16.