e v e
Well-known member
true it does not fit the corrupt scroll ..
I only learn from Him..
so take up your questions with Him.
With the New Covenant, How many Natures Do We Have?
- Thread starter charismaticlady
- Start date
I only learn from Him..
so take up your questions with Him.
e v e
Well-known member
I only listen to God..not to theologians.
charismaticlady
Active member
@eve
I only listen to God also, but He has NEVER contradicted or added to His own Scripture
I only listen to God also, but He has NEVER contradicted or added to His own Scripture
e v e
Well-known member
charismaticlady
Active member
Altered from what to what?
e v e
Well-known member
if you read what Christian
scholars, theologians (in my opinion
many are pharisees)
write of their exegesis tradition
and technique of the original texts they
themselves Admit the problem.
such Admissions exist on that other forum...
though not limited to there...
but the problem goes way way back
and is more incredible than
current literature...
and to explain it all takes much time.
since
im physically ill right now i cannot
lay out the entire thing to you,
and added to that if you
are so sure no mistake exists
in the texts, what can i say.
i distinguish between His
written down words in Heaven
and the copying down of those
words by those here, on this
fallen earth, who depending
on their relationship to Him
copied what by their own
mind they understood, not
necessarily what He said.
Current protestant scholars
admit they cut and paste, guess
and that guessing is based on
a mixture of their agreed conventions
their own logical assumptions,
construing to historical
on this earth settings,
and exegetical techniques etc etc.
i am retired as a scholar and
do know the depth of this problem
but the bottom line
is that in my opinion
based on researching it
the mistakes are neither innocent nor trivial.
and to understand this took years of study...
of working with a researcher on these
texts
so i am doubtful i can convince you
that i agree biblical as a term
(if meaning what He said with no
alteration whatsoever) is true
...but... biblical doesn't mean that
in the context you gave,
rather it means translations
and copies and decisions
unknown or known persons made
about interpretation.
the book you read was assembled by
'experts' (going back before Christ.)
maybe a helpful text to read which is online as a pdf would be kierkegaard's
"difference between a genius and an apostle..."
to understand that God Himself calls
a soul to understand and speak
but the experts not so much...
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
We all have the sin nature we Adam and the woman were created with, and the one we are all born with.
Still just ONE nature. Sin-ful.
Nothing's changed.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Maybe nothing changed for you. But something changed for me. We undergo a miraculous exchange at the center of our being once we have the spirit of Christ. Who we were in Adam is no longer there. We become a new person because we are now a child of God who is in Christ. The key event causing this exchange is a death, burial, and resurrection with Christ. This miraculous exchange is not figurative or symbolic, but literal and actual.
The spiritual part of every Christian has literally and actually been crucified, buried, and raised with Christ.The fact that this occurs spiritually and not physically doesn’t make it any less real. So what happens to the old self that was in Adam?The old self is entirely obliterated once the spirit of Christ enters the Christian. I know this comes as a complete shock to many of you who have been indoctrinated in the-old-nature-versus-the-new-nature theology. Most Christians have been taught to believe that after salvation, they are still the same at their core, and they live the rest of their lives trying to restrain this old nature. They believe they have two natures.
Romans 6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin,live any longer therein?
The Christians of today believe they are alive to sin and it's with much effort, frustration, and failure that they battle this sin nature the rest of their lives.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Our Adamic nature, our sinful nature remains with us even after our new birth. Yes, we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us but the contention surfaces between the Spirit against our flesh after our conversion to Christ.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17.
And that's not all. The world and the devil as well as our flesh contend against God in us. And it is this of which we express our faith that God save us. Saul had the same conflict in his life.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom. 7:19.
None of us are exempt from this condition and again, it is because of these things that we express faith that God in the end deliver us. We are not saved but we are in the process of being saved. His Spirit in us is down-payment towards that end.
So is our sin nature within us is literal and actual. Unsaved people do not have this conflict residing in them. They are oblivious to the truth of their literal and actual condition, believing themselves as "good" people even without Christ for that is the deception they've erected in their souls and their minds. The only difference is that we sin less and less if we are submitted to God and daily die to self and live to Him.
Death is the judgment for sin. We are as "saved" people still under the judgment for sin. We die. That is the truth. We can quote passages of Scripture and act upon their truths, but one fact remains, we are still under judgment for sin and will not be released from our sin nature actually or literally until we die and at that moment are with Christ for in the grave time ceases to exist and we are translated into eternity with the Lord. From God's eternal perspective everything has been said and done and we are with the Lord. It is in our existence in time that we deal with those things that have separated us from God in the past, we contend with in our present, and we seek to be delivered from in our future. From our perspective in time, we are not 'there' yet. The "old self" is not obliterated until we die and are transformed into the image of Christ.
No, we have only one nature: sin nature. None of us have been delivered from the totality of sin. We might have victories in our daily lives but let's not deceive ourselves. We are still in this body of this death. And because of this the following is true:
The Father is set against the world:
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. 1 John 2:15–16.
The Son is set against the "devil":
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3: 8.
The Spirit is set against the flesh:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. Gal. 5:17.
The world, the flesh, and the "devil" are actual and literal, and we cannot just wish it away. We deal with these things daily, some more, some less. Yet, it is still there. Acknowledge it and submit to God to assist in your struggles. All we have is Him, to help us and to deliver us. And on that final day we hope He does. This is the foundation of our faith/trust in Him. God asks us to trust Him, and we do. Some do not. Everything, including our salvation rests with Him. To some this is more actual than others. To others, this is more literal than some. To some this is more real than imagined and to all we are told to ask, seek, and knock that our faith to endure is steadfast. He never promised to exclude us from suffering, only that He will be with us through our suffering, to uphold us, to comfort us, to advocate for us an expected end: The salvation of our souls.
Indeed, we do. At least, the actual and literal true born Christian does.
Our victories as well as our defeats and our prodigals are all according to the will of God.
He is in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.
That is enough for me.
Peterlag
Well-known member
I don't want my posts to get too long so I will only comment on Romans 7 for now...
I have had a number of Christians tell me about Romans 7 when I tell them I do not believe Paul taught about a "sin nature" for the Christian. Romans 7 tells us right up at the top of the chapter that Paul is talking to those who are into or know the law. And then the context of the whole chapter is how we can see it's all about Israel and their Law and how they toy with their flesh. What Paul talks about in the seventh chapter of Romans is what occurs to the believer who still thinks the Law applies to them. They end up spiritually dying by the commandment and realize that the commandment does not produce life. The war is with their flesh because they are still believing the Law has power over them. In the eighth chapter of Romans is where it explains how we overcome this whole issue by living in the spirit and being dead to the Law. We cannot live by faith in what Christ has done for us and still think our obedience to written laws are necessary. To do so takes away from the perfect work of Christ and places salvation and righteousness back in our own hands. Romans 8 states "the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin..."
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
I don't think they "toyed" with the subject. It was a real bondage they were in.
If at any time the Law applied to them was when they became born again and more equipped to obey the Lord's commandments. Now that the Jews had God's Law written in their "hearts" they were in the sanctification phase having already been justified the moment they were born again. Now when God looks at His people who are born again He sees them as He saw His Son: obeyed the Law perfectly and completely. The basis of their justification.
Of course, the commandment of God produced life. Whatever name God called out at the appointed time from the "book of life" whether it was Lazarus, or Peter, or Saul, Saul, the commandment was to "Come forth!"
And each and everyone named so did.
I don't think so if the Law is rightly divided as born again believers. The Jews that were born again remained obedient and observant to the Law in the newness of their new life in Christ. Even Saul remained obedient and observant to the Law understanding it from a raised from the dead perspective especially after he was born again.
It's not being dead to the Law, but to their flesh, Saul is teaching. There is nothing wrong with the Law. It killed because men were flesh. But once natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel from the Feast of Harvest when the Holy Spirit was sent into the world things were beginning to be changed and to make sense. For as the body without the Spirit is dead...well, it still is except not where the children of Israel are concerned.
Only if one believes we can be righteous by the Law, something Saul both declared and taught against.
He's not saying the Law is sin but that the law of sin [which law] is death.
God's Law is not sinful.
Peterlag
Well-known member
Call it toying with their flesh or real bondage or whatever you want because it's still about Israel and not the church of God Romans 7 is referring to.
The NIV puts 2 Corinthians 5:17 even better than the KJV.
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Israel IS the true Church of God.
They were the Great Congregation in the desert at the time of Moses and the Tabernacle as they were "called out" ("ekklesia") out of Egypt to serve their God as promised Abraham in Genesis 15.
Israel is the Bride, the Church, the saints of the Living God.
The whole of Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation is written to and for the Hebrew people for God does not give that which is Holy (His Word) to dogs, nor does He cast His Pearls (the Word) to swine.
Peterlag
Well-known member
You are a tad bit way too far away from what I believe is the Scriptures and the power of God. Yeah, we do not agree.
jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Maybe Scripture will help you to see Israel is the Church of God.
Just remember who Israel is. Corporately they are the descendants of Jacob whom God changed his name to "Israel."
You do know this, right? Or do I have to edumacate you?
Here is the Word of God (you do respect and accept the Word of God, don't you, for all you are called to believe, yes?
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padan-aram, and blessed him.
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.
Gen. 35:9–12.
The descendants of Jacob/Israel occupy a portion of the land today. But this is the Promisede Land:
And here is where the giving of this land marked out above is found:
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Gen. 15:17–21.
As far as Israel being the true Church of God here is the proof:
The Greek word "church" is first mentioned here (in book order - not date order)
1 PAUL, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ
1 Cor. 1:1–3.
I will give you the Greek word for both "church" and "saints" below: (from Strong's)
church: ἐκκλησία
Transliteration: ekklēsia
The English word is found 118 times in the KJV, 115 times translated "church" and three times as "assembly."
from a compound of [#1537] (ek) and a derivative of [#2564] (kaleo); a calling out, i.e. (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both)
18 I will give thee thanks in the great congregation:
I will praise thee among much people
Ps 35:18.
and again, speaking of Israel (you do know who Solomon is, yes? King of Israel.)
8 Also at the same time Solomon kept the feast seven days, and all Israel with him, a very great congregation, from the entering in of Hamath unto the river of Egypt.
2 Chron. 7:8.
-----------
saints: ἅγιος
Transliteration: hagios
Found 229 times. Translated as "holy" 161 times, "saints" 61 times, "Holy One" 4 times, and 3 miscelleaneous words.
from hagos (an awful thing) [compare <G53> (hagnos), <H2282> (chag)]; sacred (physical pure, moral blameless or religious, ceremony consecrated)
The Old Testament is written first and the word is found here (among other places)
Speaking of Israel:
9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness;
And let thy saints shout for joy.
Psalms 132:9.
Do I need to edumacate you about Israel being the Bride"? Or will you take my word for it.
charismaticlady
Active member
Exactly!!! I agree whole heartedly, but you have to experience it to understand and relate to Scripture and especially the spiritual, because it was supernatural. I actually felt a dark heaviness raise up and out of me, and I became a new creature overnight. The sin I couldn't overcome was suddenly gone and replaced with a life-changing love for God. I didn't just love Him from afar; I was in love with Him with all my heart! And it has only grown stronger.
To many in the church it is foolishness to believe in a God that does what Scripture says. Instead of Jesus taking away all desire to sin out of our nature, they believe that they will have to fight the sin nature for the rest of our lives. That is what is called believing in "another Jesus."
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jeremiah1five
Well-known member
Not true. After we have been born again, we still contend with our flesh as we the Holy Spirit on our side when as unsaved people do not. For them they are completely flesh/carnal without any Advocate to rely on.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal. 5:17.
Quoting @civic "I hope this helps."
e v e
Well-known member
sin nature is the Nature of the evil realm. Of this body and this earth... Flesh.
We are in it right now.. being born into
it, because of adam. We are not In Gods creation and nature, which He had declared good. you - all imprisoned here - we - are looking through the eyes of this world. its mind. its senses.
When eden is described by Him, it is not this current earth...nor this body...
we were evicted from there. We are not there.
You are not looking through His eyes
but through the five limited senses of the Flesh mind.
Yes it's ugly. And worse than that.
Nothing of God was created with sin nature but rather All His had His nature and signature.
You are reading through an evil lying false tradition.
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Peterlag
Well-known member
Boy we agree on this one.
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