Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

Jesus took upon Himself at the cross the wrath and judgment due to uis due to being sinners before a Holy God
Not true. I have yet to meet any calvinist/reformed person who will read my post in the link I sent below and engage my arguments and challenge me. Why don't you be the first and give it a try. Its a claim you cannot defend and I have dismantled as an argument.

 
I actually prove its not here :

Yes the Son was forsaken as for the sins of the elect were being punished by Him, the cup of Gods wrath was poured out on Him and He was left desolate, all for the elects sake,

it is prophesied in this messianic Psalm 22:1

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Now God the Father never hated the Son, He always Loved Him, yet this was a matter of Justice, Zech called it a sword 13:7


Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Now sword in justice can also mean wrath, but its just wrath for example Rom 13:1-5

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
 
Yes the Son was forsaken as for the sins of the elect were being punished by Him, the cup of Gods wrath was poured out on Him and He was left desolate, all for the elects sake,

it is prophesied in this messianic Psalm 22:1

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Now God the Father never hated the Son, He always Loved Him, yet this was a matter of Justice, Zech called it a sword 13:7


Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Now sword in justice can also mean wrath, but its just wrath for example Rom 13:1-5
that is the view held by the mid evil theologians who killed believers and persecuted those who opposed their view inflicting their man-made divine wrath and justice upon the opposition with penalty hence PSA was formulated - they transferred that ungodly behavior to the bible creating the false doctrine known as PSA. they created a false god made into their own image and likeness.
 
Please give your defense @JesusFan , I would love for someone who disagrees to defend their position against the biblical one I have presented. Its bulletproof so give it your best shot brother. :)
Yes the Son was forsaken as for the sins of the elect were being punished by Him, the cup of Gods wrath was poured out on Him and He was left desolate, all for the elects sake,

it is prophesied in this messianic Psalm 22:1

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Now God the Father never hated the Son, He always Loved Him, yet this was a matter of Justice, Zech called it a sword 13:7


Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Now sword in justice can also mean wrath, but its just wrath for example Rom 13:1-5

What do we have here???

We have CLEAR Scripture denoting God's Judgment upon CHRIST/Cross for the "sins of the world".

Question: Could/Can God's Judgment be different from God's Wrath???

@JesusFan is included in the Quest
 
that is the view held by the mid evil theologians who killed believers and persecuted those who opposed their view inflicting their man-made divine wrath and justice upon the opposition with penalty hence PSA was formulated - they transferred that ungodly behavior to the bible creating the false doctrine known as PSA. they created a false god made into their own image and likeness.
Its the view taught in the sacred scriptures and you reject
 
What do we have here???

We have CLEAR Scripture denoting God's Judgment upon CHRIST/Cross for the "sins of the world".

Question: Could/Can God's Judgment be different from God's Wrath???

@JesusFan is included in the Quest
You are welcome to brother in this thread

 
What do we have here???

We have CLEAR Scripture denoting God's Judgment upon CHRIST/Cross for the "sins of the world".

Question: Could/Can God's Judgment be different from God's Wrath???

@JesusFan is included in the Quest
whatever you do .........
Let all hear this
whatever you do , DO NOT JOIN hands with ( edited for discussing another poster instead of the argument )
FOR REMINDING ALL OF THE ABOSLUTE DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS TO BE SAVED .
the man thinks that is preaching works , something man has to do .
WELL he is half right , MAN MUST BLEIEVE ON JESUS TO BE SAVED .
I dont even think calvin had agreed with that man . T hough i am very v ery wary of calvin myself .
So allow me some parting words .
WHAT DID paul and silas tell the jailor .
WHEN the jailor had asked them v ery clearly and very cleary indeed the most important question
of his entire life .
WHICH was this
SIRS what must I DO to be SAVED . Did they say , WELL you cant do nothing cause if we say
YOU have to DO , then we preach works and mans ability .
OR did they simply say THE SAME THING i been saying for years .
And that is
YE MUST ABSOLUTELY BLEIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST to be saved . that ol brightfame has no idea
what he speaks of my friend .
AND YEAH , i already KNOW by g race , by revelation , ITS BY THE SPIRIT WE call HIM LORD .
Brightfame dont even know how to explain what li ttle truth he even thinks he knows .
AS IF me t elling anyone they must BELIEVE ON JESUS to be saved is somehow errenous .
The problem with most folks is
What li ttle bible they think they know , THEY only know enough bible to make them a danger
to themselves and to others . too many been sitting under men david . far too many
have learned twisted doctrines of men . I say BIBLE TIME . GOD is with the sheep
And I KNOW HE can give us understanding of that which HE INSPIRED IN THAT BIBLE .
I dont need mens hermenuitics and or greek and methods of men TO LEARN .
I DO NEED , ONLY GOD , HIS SPIRIT and TO TEST ALL MEN against that which is written .
AND I SUGGEST we all do the same . SO
Let GOD be true but every man a liar . TOO many trust in men , NOT GOD . And it shows too .
 
You are welcome to brother in this thread

Dann'ys health and work have us busy - but i will look
 
What do we have here???

We have CLEAR Scripture denoting God's Judgment upon CHRIST/Cross for the "sins of the world".

Question: Could/Can God's Judgment be different from God's Wrath???

@JesusFan is included in the Quest
And he was numbered with the trangressors .
THOUGH HE himself had done no wrong .
yes the RIGHTEOUS SERVANT BARE THEIR INQUITIES
and GOD laid upon him the punishments of us . Issiah fifty three is pretty clear about this ONE
who bare Our iniquites and took on our punishment .
Now i have a trivia question for us all .
ARE and IS THE JUDGMENT OF GOD , HIS WRATH a RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT .
and the answer is
YOU BET .
DID we deserve HIS WRATH .
And the answer is YOU BET .
AND THAT IS WHY this wee little sheep IS SO VERY THANKFUL TO HIM
that rather than HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDG MENT OF WRATH AGAINST ME
I recieved GRACE . JESUS DID ALL that was necessary FOR THIS SHEEP . well for us all .
AND THUS HE and HIS WORDS and the Words inspired of the H OLY GOD
The SPIRIT of CHRIST that was even in them long long ago and had foretold even OF HIS FIRST COMING
TRUTH GETS POINTED TO ON MY WATCH . JESUS THE CHRIST
and no LIE is of the truth . SO , I SAY NO TO THE HO and her ecumeinal cup of whoredomes .
That harlot will save none and damn all WHO LOVED HER LIE she called love .
MARK them words . CAUSE ON the day of the LORD many are gonna wail david . Wail .
TRUTH . if a person has a problem with TRUTH , BELIEVE ME they HAVE A PROBLEM WITH GOD , WITH CHRIST .
And if any has a problem with THEM WORDS
OH THEY DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HE WHO INSPIRED THEM WORDS and IS THE TRUTH .
JESUS came to TESETIFY of THE TRUTH . not a well favored harlots fake dead end GOD and CHRIST DENYING love .
cause GOD DONT LIE , CHRIST DONT LIE , THE SPIRIT DONT LIE . but a whore sure does .
 
@civic

Let's keep digging for the Truth Diamonds in Scripture.

i can show you where there are two separate judgments.
a. unto SALVATION
b. unto WRATH
but this you have that YOU HATE the doctrine of the nicolations which i also hate .
Many cannot grasp
nor can they understand why this sheep has hate against ecumeincal doctrine .
Believing it to be wrong to hate false doctrine .
But friend it is NOT wrong .
The fear of the LORD is to hate every evil way . IS THAT NOT WRITTEN .
Would not the HOLY GHOST have put a LOVE for the truth
and a hate for false doctrine upon a sheeps heart . Oh but he do david .
And would not a seasoned man have warned all against that which is false .
exposing and not allowing false ones to seduce the people . OH but he would .
In fact EVEN in revelation we see where a church was being reprimanded , warned , warned BY GOD
for even ALLOWING a false prophtess to teach and to seduce his people .
SO this sheep is not wrong for exposing that ecuemincal harlot and her daughters or any who do her work .
her work of REBELLION against the ONLY GOD that could have saved them . Enough with the judge not
name not generation that now only judges THE VERY WORDS OF GOD as hate speech .
YEAH . By means of a harlots love , THE VERY GOD , HIS CHRIST , HIS WORDS
are now on trial in many churches and are being condmened as HATE SPEECH . TALK about REBELLION .
 
@civic

Let's keep digging for the Truth Diamonds in Scripture.

i can show you where there are two separate judgments.
a. unto SALVATION
b. unto WRATH
we better all watch out . Even this nentanyahu
IS deceiving . I SEEN what he said . I know what they are up to david .
THEY are gonna have us to BELEIVE the religoins all serve the same GOD .
And anything that wont conform
is gonna be labled the same type of zealot as is IRAN . I SEEN what he said david .
ISEEN IT . they are about to slam HOME the plan of anti christ
These leaders of all sides are fleecing the heck out of us all .
THIS IS about to give RISE to the total solution of ANTI CHRIST .
BOTH sides will agree . And any who does not will be seen as the zealot .
NO less dangeous than a muslim terroist . MARK Them words too .
THE ECUMENICAL WHORE infiltrated BOTH THE LIBERAL and EVANGELICAL realms
ALL false religoins
BOTH sides of politics . The devil is wise david . HE KNOWS HOW to decieve any group and any person .
THE ONLY WAY TO BE freed from HIS POWER , IS BY FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST .
ALL ELSE is going under the lie david . EVERYONE not in the lambs b ook of life WILL BUY IT . EVERYONE
not in the lambs book of life WILL worship the beast beliving the lie . WE should have STU CK
to the bible , TO THE ONE AND ONLY GOSPEL that can save , TO EVERY WORD OF GOD .
I pray many repent fast before its forever too late .
CAUSE IT IS WELL written WHO recieves STRONG DELUSION .
AND why they recieved it .
THEY , THEY REJECTED THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH whereby the might be saved
AND FOR THAT Cause , THAT CAUSE , GOD SENDS STRONG DELUSOIN so they believe A LIE and are damned .
IT AINT GODS Fault . ITS THEIRS .
 
Jesus stated His Death was substitutionary Mk 10:45

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
The prep for here is anti :
  1. over against, opposite to, before
  2. for, instead of, in place of (something)
    1. instead of
473 antí (a preposition) – properly, opposite, corresponding to, off-setting (over-against); (figuratively) "in place of," i.e. what substitutes (serves as an equivalent, what is proportional).

He gave His life a ransom in place of many. or instead of many. In the room of many
Redemptive Significance: Christ ‘In Place Of’


Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 declare that the Son of Man came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” Here the preposition anchors the doctrine of substitutionary atonement: Christ stands where sinners deserved to stand, satisfying divine justice while extending mercy. Hebrews 12:2 deepens the thought—“who for the joy set before Him endured the cross.” The joy exchanged for the shame spotlights the purposeful substitution driving the gospel. https://biblehub.com/greek/473.htm
 
Jesus stated His Death was substitutionary Mk 10:45

45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
The prep for here is anti :
  1. over against, opposite to, before
  2. for, instead of, in place of (something)
    1. instead of
473 antí (a preposition) – properly, opposite, corresponding to, off-setting (over-against); (figuratively) "in place of," i.e. what substitutes (serves as an equivalent, what is proportional).

He gave His life a ransom in place of many. or instead of many. In the room of many
Redemptive Significance: Christ ‘In Place Of’


Mark 10:45 and Matthew 20:28 declare that the Son of Man came “to give His life as a ransom for many.” Here the preposition anchors the doctrine of substitutionary atonement: Christ stands where sinners deserved to stand, satisfying divine justice while extending mercy. Hebrews 12:2 deepens the thought—“who for the joy set before Him endured the cross.” The joy exchanged for the shame spotlights the purposeful substitution driving the gospel. https://biblehub.com/greek/473.htm
There is nothing penal there at all and substitution and ransom have nothing to do with being penal.

The Atonement in the Teaching of Jesus: Substitution Without Penal Wrath

The Gospels present Jesus’ death as an atoning act, yet careful study shows that it emphasizes substitution, liberation, and forgiveness rather than the imposition of punitive wrath by the Father. Jesus’ own teaching provides four consistent motifs—ransom, substitution, Passover imagery, and forgiveness of sins—each of which suggests a model of atonement that preserves the unbroken relational love of the Trinity.

Jesus explicitly states, “The Son of Man came to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28). The ransom motif emphasizes liberation: the shedding of His life frees others from bondage to sin and death. N. T. Wright interprets the ransom primarily as liberation from captivity to sin and the powers of evil, rather than as payment of divine wrath[1]. Gustaf Aulén similarly frames the atonement as deliverance from the powers of sin and death, highlighting the victorious, reconciliatory aspect of Jesus’ death[2]. These interpretations support reading ransom as substitutionary action without necessitating penal retribution.

John 10:15,18 highlights the voluntary nature of Jesus’ giving of His life: “I lay down my life for the sheep… No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.” Substitution here is relational and sacrificial. Leon Morris clarifies that substitution can occur without requiring the Son to bear the Father’s wrath[3]. Wright also emphasizes that Jesus’ voluntary death demonstrates self-giving on behalf of others, consistent with divine love and relational continuity within the Trinity[4]. This relational substitution aligns with Trinitarian mutual indwelling (perichoresis), preserving Father–Son communion.

Jesus frames His death in terms of the Passover sacrifice (Matthew 26:28), identifying His blood with covenant renewal. This sacrificial language stresses deliverance and covenantal restoration rather than penal retribution. Wright situates Jesus’ death in the broader Jewish covenantal context, highlighting how the Passover imagery reinforces liberation and covenantal continuity rather than divine punishment[5]. Aulén emphasizes the victorious and restorative character of sacrificial imagery, reinforcing the non-penal aspect of Jesus’ death[2].

Jesus links His death directly to the forgiveness of sins (Matthew 26:28). Forgiveness in this context is restorative: it reconciles sinners to God without necessitating divine wrath against the Son. Morris notes that forgiveness is the central motif of atonement in the teaching of Jesus, emphasizing relational reconciliation over juridical punishment[3]. Paul later affirms this interpretation in 2 Corinthians 5:19, stating that “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,” indicating that the Father’s love toward the Son remained unbroken during the atoning act[4].


While traditional Penal Substitution (PSA) emphasizes the Father’s wrath being poured out on the Son as a requirement for divine justice, this reading is not the only interpretation of Scripture. John Stott, for example, presents PSA as the primary evangelical understanding, portraying the cross as a satisfaction of God’s judicial anger[6]. Leon Morris similarly emphasizes propitiation language in the New Testament[3]. However, as the preceding analysis demonstrates, the Gospels themselves highlight ransom, substitution, Passover imagery, and forgiveness of sins, none of which necessitate understanding the cross as penal wrath directed at the Son. N. T. Wright and Gustaf Aulén provide alternative frameworks that preserve the relational love and unity of the Trinity while affirming the salvific efficacy of Jesus’ death[2,4]. This contrast shows that a robust, biblically grounded theology of atonement can affirm substitution and reconciliation without requiring intra-Trinitarian rupture.

Traditional PSA emphasizes the Father’s wrath being poured on the Son. Figures like John Stott present this as satisfying divine justice, and Morris highlights propitiation language. However, the Gospel motifs above—ransom, substitution, Passover imagery, forgiveness—do not require a penal interpretation. Scholars such as Wright and Aulén show frameworks that preserve the relational love and unity of the Trinity while affirming Christ’s salvific work.

Historically, the early church fathers (ECFs) also did not emphasize penal wrath against the Son. Athanasius and Gregory of Nazianzus focus on Christ’s victory over sin, death, and the powers of evil, highlighting reconciliation and restoration rather than judicial punishment. This historical perspective demonstrates continuity with the relationally-focused atonement presented in Scripture.


The four motifs—ransom, substitution, Passover imagery, and forgiveness—collectively present a model of atonement in which the Son acts as the willing substitute for humanity. Importantly, they do not require interpreting the cross as the Father pouring out wrath on the Son. Instead, the Gospels depict an atonement consistent with God’s eternal relational love and the unbroken communion of the Trinity. This reading preserves both the salvific efficacy of Jesus’ death and the integrity of divine love, offering a biblical and theological alternative to traditional Penal Substitution. Scripture and historical witness together support a robust atonement model that affirms substitution and reconciliation without intra-Trinitarian rupture.

hope this helps !!!
 
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