Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

[synergy]

You cannot escape the Word of Truth

It's true that your imaginations cannot escape the word of Truth.

 

[DavidTree]

I never said that every mother (meter) is a Theotokos. Your imagination is flaring again.

There does not exist a single theotokos.

Not now, not when Mary was pregnant with "a body being prepared for the son of man", not ever!!!

i BELIEVE Mary

And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And Holy is His name.
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

 

[synergy]

There does not exist a single theotokos.

Not now, not when Mary was pregnant with "a body being prepared for the son of man", not ever!!!

Sounds like you keep choking on the fact that Jesus is God.

i BELIEVE Mary

And Mary said:

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And Holy is His name.
And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”

I believe Mary. I also believe Isaiah 7:14 that says that a Virgin (Mary) will bear a Son (Jesus) who is God. In other words, Mary will bear God. Do you believe Isaiah 7:14?

Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. (Is 7;14).

 

[Presby02]

On the basis of belief and confession. Why are you dumbfounded with that?

So you don't believe in unconditional election? Excellent!

So unbelief is not a sin then? It was not carried away at the cross?

LOL, ya got me genius. You had to go some to come to that conclusion. You reek of desperation.

You do not know?

Here , JESUS will explain it = John 3:16-21

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Is unbelief a sin? Was it taken away at the cross? For every last person? Then how can you be judged for a sin that was nailed to the cross?

 

[synergy]

So unbelief is not a sin then? It was not carried away at the cross?

Our ability to choose to believe or not was never nailed to the Cross. We retain that privilege at all times and must use it correctly

LOL, ya got me genius. You had to go some to come to that conclusion. You reek of desperation.

I would never call myself a "genius". You are way too flattering. I would just call myself a Bible messenger and leave it at that. Anyways, I'm glad Biblical truth finally "got" you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is not slandering to continue to defend the English language against word redefinitions (i.e.: redefining "all" as "elect"). I do not stand for that and neither should you. If you allow them the luxury of word definitions then what type of witness are you?

I believe that half of all heresies would immediately evaporate if people would just practice correct English language grammatical comprehension. This is a perfect case in point. And for us not to defend the English language is a great disservice to the Gospel.

It is slandering when you call them something they are not

whether you mean it or not

its a stupid argument, and no one is going to take it seriously because on its face it is accusatory and everyone in this room knows they are not universalists.

You want to discuss with them. discuss the word. Its like telling grace believers they love sin. Its not going to get you any brownie points with them, it will more than likely set them off. because you are falsely accusing them.

whether you mean it or not. It is slander.. Because you and I both know they are not universalists. when you use that word. they will see that word. and NOTHING else you say will matter..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Like 'meter' being replaced with 'theotokos'

i am with you @synergy = i do not stand for that

can you explain?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How about we just believe the words of Christ = John 3:16-21

amen,, can we believe this, as written

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

yes

the world here means world. lets take it at its word.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It's true that your imaginations cannot escape the word of Truth.

then lets state the truth, not the truth with accusatory ramifications..

throwing missiles at the person your trying to win over will not cause them to want to see it your way

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So unbelief is not a sin then? It was not carried away at the cross?

no,

if it was. then those who do not believe would be forgiven, and not condemned, because it was paid at the cross

LOL, ya got me genius. You had to go some to come to that conclusion. You reek of desperation.

Is unbelief a sin? Was it taken away at the cross? For every last person? Then how can you be judged for a sin that was nailed to the cross?

again no

he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

if unbelief was taken at the cross. no one would be condemned

 

[atpollard]

Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.

LOVE the Gospel of John and especially this passage.

Thank You

I agree, It is a great passage (especially taken in context). It just had nothing to do with "Why we naturally HATE penal substitution" (the TOPIC) so I tried to delete it before I contributed to the "bunny trail".

I "hate" (too strong a term) the "transferred wrath" portion of Penal Substitution Atonement Theory because I cannot locate SCRIPTURE to support a transfer of "wrath".

Did Christ set us free from the PENALTY of our sin? Youbecha ... Hebrews 9:15 [NLT] "That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant."

Was Christ a SUBSTITUTION for us? Youbecha ... (sort of) ... Galatians 3:13 [NLT] "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'"

However, scripture falls short of this alleged "wrath of the Father, stored in some special account against the Saints, demanded to be poured on SOMEONE for God's Justice, and inflicted on God the Son by God the Father". Without clear scripture supporting such a specific and Biblically contradicted claim ("your sins are forgiven" - Isaiah 6:7; Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; Luke 7:48 ... with no punishment or wrath transfer, just "forgiven") I must join the Bereans in rejecting the false additions to the Word of God.

 

[civic]

I agree, It is a great passage (especially taken in context). It just had nothing to do with "Why we naturally HATE penal substitution" (the TOPIC) so I tried to delete it before I contributed to the "bunny trail".

I "hate" (too strong a term) the "transferred wrath" portion of Penal Substitution Atonement Theory because I cannot locate SCRIPTURE to support a transfer of "wrath".

Did Christ set us free from the PENALTY of our sin? Youbecha ... Hebrews 9:15 [NLT] "That is why he is the one who mediates a new covenant between God and people, so that all who are called can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant."

Was Christ a SUBSTITUTION for us? Youbecha ... (sort of) ... Galatians 3:13 [NLT] "But Christ has rescued us from the curse pronounced by the law. When he was hung on the cross, he took upon himself the curse for our wrongdoing. For it is written in the Scriptures, 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'"

However, scripture falls short of this alleged "wrath of the Father, stored in some special account against the Saints, demanded to be poured on SOMEONE for God's Justice, and inflicted on God the Son by God the Father". Without clear scripture supporting such a specific and Biblically contradicted claim ("your sins are forgiven" - Isaiah 6:7; Matthew 9:2; Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; Luke 7:48 ... with no punishment or wrath transfer, just "forgiven") I must join the Bereans in rejecting the false additions to the Word of God.

Amen brother !

 

[DavidTree]

can you explain?

'meter' is the word for mother in NT Scripture

RCC injects 'theotokos' upon Mary

Theotokos means Mother of God

There does not exist in Scripture the word 'theotokos'

 

[DavidTree]

So unbelief is not a sin then? It was not carried away at the cross?

LOL, ya got me genius. You had to go some to come to that conclusion. You reek of desperation.

Is unbelief a sin? Was it taken away at the cross? For every last person? Then how can you be judged for a sin that was nailed to the cross?

Unbelief MUST be attached/directed to or away from something or Someone.

Unbelief only becomes a 'sin' when it violates God's commandments = John 3:16-21

 

[synergy]

It is slandering when you call them something they are not

whether you mean it or not

its a stupid argument, and no one is going to take it seriously because on its face it is accusatory and everyone in this room knows they are not universalists.

You want to discuss with them. discuss the word. Its like telling grace believers they love sin. Its not going to get you any brownie points with them, it will more than likely set them off. because you are falsely accusing them.

whether you mean it or not. It is slander.. Because you and I both know they are not universalists. when you use that word. they will see that word. and NOTHING else you say will matter..

My approach is to defend the English & Greek languages when it comes to the word of God. I will not accept blatant word redefinitions like "all" to "elect" or "the Faith" to "that Faith". You seem ok with others or even you doing that. I'm not. You have your approach and I have mine.

If everyone is given the license to alter meanings of words to whatever they fancy then anything goes. No matter how many people fall into a particular word redefinition, we should not just "understand" them and move on. Languages are precious and they should never be warped into conforming to one's subjective inclinations.

You took issue with my usage of universalism and that's fine. I stopped using that word and became more precise in my words. That's because I value words and their common usage. Do I see the same appreciation of words from calvinists? Unfortunately not. Do I just accept that and move on? I cannot in good conscience do that. If someone is on the road to destruction do you just understand them and move on? You might but not me.

I seriously believe that at least half of all heresies would immediately evaporate if people would just practice correct English language grammatical comprehension. For us not to defend the English language is a great disservice to the Gospel.

 

[DavidTree]

If everyone is given the license to alter meanings of words to whatever they fancy then anything goes.

This is a scandal - who would do such a thing? lol

 

[civic]

This is a scandal - who would do such a thing? lol

We see it all the time with PSA supported since wrath is never used with Jesus as the recipient they change the meaning and or use a passage without wrath claiming its wrath with the doctrine of PSA.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

'meter' is the word for mother in NT Scripture

RCC injects 'theotokos' upon Mary

Theotokos means Mother of God

There does not exist in Scripture the word 'theotokos'

yes. it is a pagan title.. all the pagan systems (roman or greek and all the others) had a mother of God

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Unbelief MUST be attached/directed to or away from something or Someone.

Unbelief only becomes a 'sin' when it violates God's commandments = John 3:16-21

he who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already.

what does this have to do with gods coomands?

 

[civic]

yes. it is a pagan title.. all the pagan systems (roman or greek and all the others) had a mother of God

Yet God was in her womb for 9 months and Jesus has Mary's DNA.