Why we naturally HATE penal substitution

Yes and No

Yes sinful men condemned an innocent man.
No, they did not override God's involvement by acting alone.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
Yup.
Jesus death was no accident … it was God’s plan.
Jesus took OUR SINS to that cross.
Jesus died on that cross.
By his stripes “we are healed”.
We are partakers in Jesus death and resurrection.
By his act of obedience, Jesus redeemed us.

It is just the “God punished Jesus” and “our wrath was transferred to Jesus” that becomes harder to locate Scripture that actually SAYS that.

[Like the old joke: “How much arsenic spoils the meal?”]
 
What can be too harsh for sinning against an infinitely Holy God?
If you believe that anyone that disagrees with your opinions about what scripture does not say but really means is “sinning against an infinitely Holy God”, then you probably have too high an opinion of yourself. ;)

You may be special, but you are not THAT special. :ROFLMAO:
 
Yes and No

Yes sinful men condemned an innocent man.
No, they did not override God's involvement by acting alone.

Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
It Was God's plan all the way from Genesis

To the serpent God says, in part, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” Genesis 3:15

Its called protoevangelium meaning “first gospel”

It's the poring out Gods wrath on Jesus that I don't buy into.

Because Liberal Christians think the idea of God the Father pouring out wrath on His Son is a case of divine child abuse and contradicts the idea of God being a loving Father.

Then you have, Evangelicals debating whether or not the concept of penal substitution is Biblical.

And finally, Free Grace people disagree on how and for whom Jesus satisfied God’s wrath. So, it’s a thorny controversy.

Whenever I’m faced with a theological problem, I begin by trying to find an explicit statement for the doctrine: “Where does the Bible explicitly say that God poured out His wrath on Jesus?”

In this case, the answer is: nowhere. At least, nowhere that I could find. It may appear in the hymns we sing, but it does not appear as an explicit statement in the Biblical texts. That why I do not hold to PSA.
 
It Was God's plan all the way from Genesis

To the serpent God says, in part, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” Genesis 3:15

Its called protoevangelium meaning “first gospel”

It's the poring out Gods wrath on Jesus that I don't buy into.

Because Liberal Christians think the idea of God the Father pouring out wrath on His Son is a case of divine child abuse and contradicts the idea of God being a loving Father.

Then you have, Evangelicals debating whether or not the concept of penal substitution is Biblical.

And finally, Free Grace people disagree on how and for whom Jesus satisfied God’s wrath. So, it’s a thorny controversy.

Whenever I’m faced with a theological problem, I begin by trying to find an explicit statement for the doctrine: “Where does the Bible explicitly say that God poured out His wrath on Jesus?”

In this case, the answer is: nowhere. At least, nowhere that I could find. It may appear in the hymns we sing, but it does not appear as an explicit statement in the Biblical texts. That why I do not hold to PSA.
It was God's Plan before HE Prophesied to Satan in Genesis chapter 3

Revelation 13:8 -
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
 
It Was God's plan all the way from Genesis

To the serpent God says, in part, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” Genesis 3:15

Its called protoevangelium meaning “first gospel”

It's the poring out Gods wrath on Jesus that I don't buy into.

Because Liberal Christians think the idea of God the Father pouring out wrath on His Son is a case of divine child abuse and contradicts the idea of God being a loving Father.

Then you have, Evangelicals debating whether or not the concept of penal substitution is Biblical.

And finally, Free Grace people disagree on how and for whom Jesus satisfied God’s wrath. So, it’s a thorny controversy.

Whenever I’m faced with a theological problem, I begin by trying to find an explicit statement for the doctrine: “Where does the Bible explicitly say that God poured out His wrath on Jesus?”

In this case, the answer is: nowhere. At least, nowhere that I could find. It may appear in the hymns we sing, but it does not appear as an explicit statement in the Biblical texts. That why I do not hold to PSA.
You are correct in saying: "no explicit" statement as "God poured out His wrath on His Son"

Which then begs the question: What exactly did Jesus suffer from God's Plan/Perspective?

I believe the scriptures clearly show forth PSA = Isaiah chapter 53 and the Psalms and who and what HE suffered for.

This does not mean that we are to argue against each other but rather to sharpen each other by breaking the Bread of the Word together = "Take eat, for this is My Body BROKEN for you"
 
It was God's Plan before HE Prophesied to Satan in Genesis chapter 3

Revelation 13:8 -
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life
of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Some times I wonder if the plan started when God Kicked Satan out of heaven to earth. I have more on this thought. Some real deep cogitation. I'll get into it tomorrow.
 
You are correct in saying: "no explicit" statement as "God poured out His wrath on His Son"

Which then begs the question: What exactly did Jesus suffer from God's Plan/Perspective?

I believe the scriptures clearly show forth PSA = Isaiah chapter 53 and the Psalms and who and what HE suffered for.

This does not mean that we are to argue against each other but rather to sharpen each other by breaking the Bread of the Word together = "Take eat, for this is My Body BROKEN for you"
Who broke His body? Who stuck the spear in his side.

 
Who broke His body? Who stuck the spear in his side.

The Roman soldiers broke His body and His face so much that when you saw Him you could not recognize Him.

Isaiah 52:13-14
See, my servant will act wisely
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Just as there were many who were appalled at him
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—

Now you know why, in the Garden, HE prayed 3 times "Father please take this cup from me..."
 
You are correct in saying: "no explicit" statement as "God poured out His wrath on His Son"

Which then begs the question: What exactly did Jesus suffer from God's Plan/Perspective?

I believe the scriptures clearly show forth PSA = Isaiah chapter 53 and the Psalms and who and what HE suffered for.

This does not mean that we are to argue against each other but rather to sharpen each other by breaking the Bread of the Word together = "Take eat, for this is My Body BROKEN for you"

In Matthew 26:39, Jesus says, "If it be your will, let this cup pass from me." Jesus tells us precisely what the cup was. It was the cup of his suffering, which meant that He would die an agonizing death as a martyr. In the passage below, Jesus told His disciples that they would also drink of the same "cup":

Matthew 20:17-

Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them, 18 “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19 and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”20 Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him. 21 “What is it you want?” he asked. She said, "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."22 “You don’t know what you are asking,” Jesus said to them. “Can you drink the cup I am going to drink?” “We can,” they answered. 23 Jesus said to them, “You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father.”

1Thessalonians 5:9-For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As we see above it was not the cup of wrath Jesus was speaking about but it was the suffering He was going to have to endure for our sins. God has not appointed us to wrath and the cup means the suffering of Jesus and that the disciples would also suffer death as martyrs. In fact, many scriptures testify that believers too will suffer persecution for being a follower of Jesus. Suffering persecution is a promise for a believer who follows Jesus, it is something we should expect to happen in our life.

2 Timothy 3:12- Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you as well; if they kept My word, they will keep yours as well.

Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.


Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Deuteronomy 4:31
For the LORD your God is a merciful God; He will not abandon you or destroy you or forget the covenant with your fathers, which He swore to them by oath.

Deuteronomy 31:6
Be strong and courageous; do not be afraid or terrified of them, for it is the LORD your God who goes with you; He will never leave you nor forsake you."

Deuteronomy 31:8
The LORD Himself goes before you; He will be with you. He will never leave you nor forsake you. Do not be afraid or discouraged."

Joshua 1:5
No one shall stand against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so will I be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you.


Psalm 9:10

And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee

Psalm 37:25, 28

I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever,but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.

Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them


Who was responsible for putting Jesus to death, was it God or man?

Acts 2:23

This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross

Acts 4:10, 11
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole…

Acts 5:30
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.

Acts 7:52
Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him

Acts 13:27
For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him

1 Corinthians 2:8-
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

conclusion: Jesus the Righteous One, Holy One, Divine Son of God was not forsaken by the Father as Scripture declares in many places in both testaments. One cannot Isolate Jesus words from the rest of Scripture that contradicts Gods promise to never forsake His righteous ones. That is a promise from God that He will never break. Those who teach He was forsaken are misunderstanding Scripture and have God contradicting Himself and making God the Father out to be a liar.

hope this helps !!!
 
Why don’t you listen to Jesus who is the Truth and let Him explain His own atonement below. I believe Jesus what don’t you ?

We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.

1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom

2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom

3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom

4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51

5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28

6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11

7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution

8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
Look at number six
then go to and behold the night they came to arrest JESUS .
Look real closely at what occurs .
They have come for CHRIST
and HE says I AM HE
AND not a man could touch him as they all fell backwards .
HE had to give them , ALLOW them permission . THEY FELL backwards
HE then says again who do ye seek
and they said again JESUS
and he offers himself over . They could not touch him . Not a one could have as they all fell backwards .
JESUS laid HIS OWN LIFE DOWN WILLFULLY , NO MAN COULD TAKE IT FROM HIM .
As EVEN he warns the desciples who had cut off the ear of ol malchus .
SHEATH your swords , DONT YE KNOW that i COULD command over twelve legions of angels
BUT , He knew the Fathers will my friend . HE gave up HIS LIFE .
HE had the POWER to lay it down and the POWER TO RAISE IT UP . me also thinks the latter part
is what many often miss . I HAVE the POWER to RAISE IT UP again . HE said I HAVE THE POWER to raise it again .
Now to the trenches one and to the trenches all .
 
Look at number six
then go to and behold the night they came to arrest JESUS .
Look real closely at what occurs .
They have come for CHRIST
and HE says I AM HE
AND not a man could touch him as they all fell backwards .
HE had to give them , ALLOW them permission . THEY FELL backwards
HE then says again who do ye seek
and they said again JESUS
and he offers himself over . They could not touch him . Not a one could have as they all fell backwards .
JESUS laid HIS OWN LIFE DOWN WILLFULLY , NO MAN COULD TAKE IT FROM HIM .
As EVEN he warns the desciples who had cut off the ear of ol malchus .
SHEATH your swords , DONT YE KNOW that i COULD command over twelve legions of angels
BUT , He knew the Fathers will my friend . HE gave up HIS LIFE .
HE had the POWER to lay it down and the POWER TO RAISE IT UP . me also thinks the latter part
is what many often miss . I HAVE the POWER to RAISE IT UP again . HE said I HAVE THE POWER to raise it again .
Now to the trenches one and to the trenches all .
AMEN !!!
 
It Was God's plan all the way from Genesis

To the serpent God says, in part, “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel” Genesis 3:15

Its called protoevangelium meaning “first gospel”

It's the poring out Gods wrath on Jesus that I don't buy into.

Because Liberal Christians think the idea of God the Father pouring out wrath on His Son is a case of divine child abuse and contradicts the idea of God being a loving Father.

Then you have, Evangelicals debating whether or not the concept of penal substitution is Biblical.

And finally, Free Grace people disagree on how and for whom Jesus satisfied God’s wrath. So, it’s a thorny controversy.

Whenever I’m faced with a theological problem, I begin by trying to find an explicit statement for the doctrine: “Where does the Bible explicitly say that God poured out His wrath on Jesus?”

In this case, the answer is: nowhere. At least, nowhere that I could find. It may appear in the hymns we sing, but it does not appear as an explicit statement in the Biblical texts. That why I do not hold to PSA.
Correct my friend .
Speaking of genesis .
What was the one tree GOD had told them NOT to eat of for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die .
And what was the objective of the serpent . TO convince eve That she would NOT die
but simply become as gods to know good and evil .
Well they did become as gods to know good and evil , AS GOD himself later says
BUT they died , for the serpent lied . You see WHAT GOD says IS TRUTH .
Now i want to introduce us all
to another major event in these last hours .
JESUS Came that all who do beleive would NOT perish but have everlasting life .
The serpent now says as do his many men
OH SURELY ye shall not perish , for GOD is love . again using a truth out of text to LIE .
as the serpent promotes his big ol inclusive interfaith FAT ROAD LIE .
And now again i must all remind us
CAN GOD LIE . SO what makes us think JESUS CAN and HE SAID they would be damned
and how woeful to those who had failed to beleive on HIM , worse than sodom .
SO are we gonna beleive the serpent or CHRIST . JESUS said they would be damned
the serpent says , SURELY they shall not . I already KNOW WHOM I BELIEVE . I SUGGEST WE BELIEVE ONLY GOD .
 
Correct my friend .
Speaking of genesis .
What was the one tree GOD had told them NOT to eat of for in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die .
And what was the objective of the serpent . TO convince eve That she would NOT die
but simply become as gods to know good and evil .
Well they did become as gods to know good and evil , AS GOD himself later says
BUT they died , for the serpent lied . You see WHAT GOD says IS TRUTH .
Now i want to introduce us all
to another major event in these last hours .
JESUS Came that all who do beleive would NOT perish but have everlasting life .
The serpent now says as do his many men
OH SURELY ye shall not perish , for GOD is love . again using a truth out of text to LIE .
as the serpent promotes his big ol inclusive interfaith FAT ROAD LIE .
And now again i must all remind us
CAN GOD LIE . SO what makes us think JESUS CAN and HE SAID they would be damned
and how woeful to those who had failed to beleive on HIM , worse than sodom .
SO are we gonna beleive the serpent or CHRIST . JESUS said they would be damned
the serpent says , SURELY they shall not . I already KNOW WHOM I BELIEVE . I SUGGEST WE BELIEVE ONLY GOD .
Preach it! (y)
 
To the trenches my friend its even later than it was yesterday at this time .
Paradise forever with CHRIST sure SOUNDS SO LOVELY and man the hour draws ever nigh .
One day in an hour known to no man
shall all saints who had endured faithful in HIM , OH THEY FLY HOME my friend .
Till that hour , OF which no man knows , of which do draw nigh ,
Let us be real diligent and very busy preaching THE ONLY and i must again say ONLY NAME
whereby one may be saved .
SO now i leave us with a question a jailor once asked . VERY SIMPLE answer that paul and silas gave him too .
SIRS what MUST I DO , to BE SAVED .
BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . now aint that real simple .
but you would marvel at the attacks i have recieved as well as have others
for reminding EVEN THOSE within CHRISTENDOM THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE TO BE SAVED .
Aint that SAD my friend . BUT it will get only worse with whaterver short time we have left in this world .
 
To the trenches my friend its even later than it was yesterday at this time .
Paradise forever with CHRIST sure SOUNDS SO LOVELY and man the hour draws ever nigh .
One day in an hour known to no man
shall all saints who had endured faithful in HIM , OH THEY FLY HOME my friend .
Till that hour , OF which no man knows , of which do draw nigh ,
Let us be real diligent and very busy preaching THE ONLY and i must again say ONLY NAME
whereby one may be saved .
SO now i leave us with a question a jailor once asked . VERY SIMPLE answer that paul and silas gave him too .
SIRS what MUST I DO , to BE SAVED .
BELIEVE YE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . now aint that real simple .
but you would marvel at the attacks i have recieved as well as have others
for reminding EVEN THOSE within CHRISTENDOM THAT ONE MUST BELIEVE TO BE SAVED .
Aint that SAD my friend . BUT it will get only worse with whaterver short time we have left in this world .
That's what I'm talking about ,,,"SOUNDS SO LOVELY" I'm a believer, Jesus is my Lord and King.
 
Preach it! (y)
The sheep of His pasture dont go around preaching death and offering up false hope .
They preach THE WORD OF LIFE that giveth eternal life unto all who do beleive in HIM .
THEY preach JESUS the CHRIST and Him crucified . Every word of HIS is as honey to their taste.
They wont heed the seducing spirits and doctrines of men
they have overcome THEM , for GREATER IS HE that is in his sheep than he that is in the world .
JESUS DOES have the sheep . And sheep look out for sheep . by the SAME ONE SPIRIT
that works within all sheep .
SHEEP offer the Water of life that if one drinks of shall have everlasting life .
goats offer up the waters of death that giveth but false hope .
 
That's what I'm talking about ,,,"SOUNDS SO LOVELY" I'm a believer, Jesus is my Lord and King.
Sounds very lovely indeed .
Its why its called A FREE GIFT .
And now for a word written long long ago
and recorded in a scroll , a book known as revelation .
AND LET WHO SO EVER WILL
COME and DRINK of the water of life freely .
That is an offering unto any , who so ever WILL let them drink
OH its JESUS preaching time all right .
And time to remind this world and sadly much of christendom
that HE wont be denied .
AND THOUGH GOD desires not the death of the wicked but rather they repent
And THOUGH surely HE has been VERY VERY LONGSUFFERING
THEY will have the part in the LAKE that burneth with fire, known as the second death ,
IF THEY reject HIM . And can no man by THE SPIRIT call him accursed .
SO all other religoins do and thus HAVE NOT the SPIRIT .
IF we desire folks to be saved
AS DO GOD
THEN we had preached JESUS to them with the dire reminder YE must bleieve or perish .
But he who hates his neighbor giveth lies to his neighbor
As it is written ye shall not HATE your neighbor in your heart , you shall in any way rebuke him
and not ALLOW sin upon him . Well JESUS aint the minstir of sin , so he dont honor anyones sin
AND UNBELEIF IS SIN , the deadly sin of all . IT TO FAIL , TO REJECT to BELEIEVE ON CHRIST .
I Told you , ye shall DIE in your sins , for if ye beleive NOT that i AM HE ye shall die in your sins .
 
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