Dizerner
Active Member
It's the opposite of human reasoning.
No one naturally thinks God sacrificing himself to himself would take our sins away.
Why we naturally HATE penal substitution
- Thread starter Dizerner
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It's the opposite of human reasoning.
No one naturally thinks God sacrificing himself to himself would take our sins away.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
civic
Active Member
The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.
Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.
Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."
Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
The forgiveness of sins is found only in the blood of Christ- His life which He gave as a sacrifice for sin. That is the heart of the Atonement. It is what the New Covenant is found upon His blood, His life which was given for our sins. Forgiveness is only found in His blood that He gave His life on our behalf. That is how are sins are removed and taken away. That is what the Law required for sin was the blood of the animal sacrifice.
There is no "punishment" above anywhere. There is a sacrifice provided which covers and provides forgiveness of sins. The entire book of Hebrews is built upon the OT Law and how it is fulfilled in Christ.
Jesus said He gave His life as a Ransom . Strongs 3038- Lutron λύτρον. the purchasing money for manumitting slaves, a ransom, the price of ransoming; especially the sacrifice by which expiation is effected, an offering of expiation. Thayers: λύτρον, λύτρου, τό (λύω), the Sept. passim for כֹּפֶר, גְּאֻלָּה, פִּדְיון, etc.; the price for redeeming, ransom (paid for slaves, Leviticus 19:20; for captives, Isaiah 45:13; for the ransom of a life, Exodus 21:30; Numbers 35:31f): ἀντί πολλῶν, to liberate many from the misery and penalty of their sins, Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45. (Pindar, Aeschylus, Xenophon, Plato, others.)
Matthew 20:28- just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many
How did God view His own death, atonement for sin ?
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
hilastērion – the atonement is received by Faith.
Romans 3:25
God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished. NIV
Romans 3:25
whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. ESV
The Atonement is received by faith. The offering of the Atonement for sin cannot be obtained apart from faith. The atonement for sin has been made and it cannot be applied to mankind apart from faith. Jesus has made an atonement for sin but it produces no reconciliation, no pardon from sin, no remission of sin unless is accepted or received by faith.
conclusion: The One who made Atonement for my sins completely left out PSA and not once mentioned it or hinted at it in any way, shape or form. He said His death was a substitution, ransom, Passover, sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- expiation. There was no wrath from the Father to the Son. The anger, wrath, vengeance, retribution as the Apostles taught in Acts and Jesus taught in the gospels came from evil and wicked men.
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
Most people believe what they have been taught in church by their leaders not from what they have studied on their own objectively without bias and presuppositions. They are afraid to break away from what they have assumed is true.
Begotten
Active Member
To the bone.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement is just a man made theory. Your right it is bad, very bad. Here is so info on it.
It was developed during the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century by Martin Luther and John Calvin and is an “update” to Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory of Atonement From the 11th century.
Some preachers associated with Penal Substitutionary Atonement are John MacArthur, David Platt, John Piper, Paul Washer, C.J. Mahaney, Voddie Baucham, Mark Driscoll, and others, most of whom are Reformed (Calvinists), Pentecostals & Baptists.
Quite the line up
Penal Substitutionary Atonement’s basic premise is that God, filled with wrath and anger due to human imperfection and sin, has no choice but to punish imperfection by casting all people into hell, which, in the Reformed version of hell, means eternal torture in fire. Therefore, instead of punishing humanity, God allegedly substituted humanity with Jesus, torturing and killing Him in our place.
Who do you think is really behind that lie?
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civic
Active Member
Yes it’s a false teaching , an assault on our Tri- Une, Tri-Unity, Trinity , Godhead. Its divides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.To the bone.
Penal Substitutionary Atonement is just a man made theory. Your right it is bad, very bad. Here is so info on it.
It was developed during the Protestant Reformation of the 16th century by Martin Luther and John Calvin and is an “update” to Anselm’s Satisfaction Theory of Atonement From the 11th century.
Some preachers associated with Penal Substitutionary Atonement are John MacArthur, David Platt, John Piper, Paul Washer, C.J. Mahaney, Voddie Baucham, Mark Driscoll, and others, most of whom are Reformed (Calvinists), Pentecostals & Baptists.
Quite the line up
Penal Substitutionary Atonement’s basic premise is that God, filled with wrath and anger due to human imperfection and sin, has no choice but to punish imperfection by casting all people into hell, which, in the Reformed version of hell, means eternal torture in fire. Therefore, instead of punishing humanity, God allegedly substituted humanity with Jesus, torturing and killing Him in our place.
Who do you think is really behind that lie?
Dizerner
Active Member
How is pagans sacrificing themselves logically equal to God sacrificing himself?
Those are two entirely different things.
Dizerner
Active Member
If someone denies that Jesus took the punishment of their sins, Edit by Admin rule 2f
It's basic Gospel.
Being a Christian is not believing a God exists, Muslims do that.
Being a Christian is not saying nice people go to heaven, Mormons believe that.
THE distinctive thing about Christianity, THE sine qua non as it were, what sets it apart, is God suffering our punishment.
A grace that costs God something.
civic
Active Member
Why don’t you listen to Jesus who is the Truth and let Him explain His own atonement below. I believe Jesus so why don’t you ?
We see God the Son described His own death, the Atonement in 4 ways. Theology begins with God. He said His death was a Substitution, a Ransom, a Passover, a Sacrifice and for forgiveness of sins- Expiation.
1- Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 Substitution, Ransom
2-No man takes my life I lay it down and I will take it up again- John 10:18 Substitution, Ransom
3- I lay My life down for the sheep- John 10:15Substitution, Ransom
4- Jesus viewed His death as the Passover John 6:51
5-just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a Ransom for many- Matthew 20:28
6-I Am the Good Shepherd who lays down His life for the sheep- Substitution, John 10:11
7-Jesus said in John 11:50- nor do you take into account that it is expedient for you that one man die for the people, and that the whole nation not perish- Substitution
8 -This is my blood of the Covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins- Matthew 26:28
Hosanna
Active Member
One of the most significant criticisms of Penal Substitutionary Atonement is the portrayal of a Father who requires the torture and killing of His Son.
This image can be seen as creating a disturbing dynamic within the Godhead, suggesting dissonance and conflict where there should be unity and harmony. The idea of the Father inflicting wrath upon the Son can be perceived as endorsing abusive relationships, contrary to the message of divine love and compassion central to Christianity.
Professor of Systematic Theology Thomas H.
This goes with what @civic tells us about, PSA disrupts the Trinity. And that will never happen. Jesus the Anointed One is always the same: yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:3
This image can be seen as creating a disturbing dynamic within the Godhead, suggesting dissonance and conflict where there should be unity and harmony. The idea of the Father inflicting wrath upon the Son can be perceived as endorsing abusive relationships, contrary to the message of divine love and compassion central to Christianity.
Professor of Systematic Theology Thomas H.
This goes with what @civic tells us about, PSA disrupts the Trinity. And that will never happen. Jesus the Anointed One is always the same: yesterday, today, and forever. Hebrews 13:3
civic
Active Member
Amen
atpollard
Active Member
If we are going to make harsh proclamations (either direction), then I think that we are obligated to turn to SCRIPTURE for arguments about "apostasy" (not a Christian).
Here are the NT verses containing "punishment":
- [Mat 25:46 ESV] 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
- [2Co 2:6 ESV] 6 For such a one, this punishment by the majority is enough,
- [2Co 7:11 ESV] 11 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.
- [2Th 1:9 ESV] 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
- [Heb 10:29 ESV] 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
- [2Pe 2:9 ESV] 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
- [1Jo 4:18 ESV] 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.
- [Jde 1:7 ESV] 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.
Here are the NT verses containing "punish":
- [Luk 23:16, 22 ESV] 16 I will therefore punish and release him." ... 22 A third time he said to them, "Why? What evil has he done? I have found in him no guilt deserving death. I will therefore punish and release him."
- [Act 4:21 ESV] 21 And when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way to punish them, because of the people, for all were praising God for what had happened.
- [2Co 10:6 ESV] 6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
- [1Pe 2:14 ESV] 14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
Here are the NT verses containing "punished":
- [Act 22:5 ESV] 5 as the high priest and the whole council of elders can bear me witness. From them I received letters to the brothers, and I journeyed toward Damascus to take those also who were there and bring them in bonds to Jerusalem to be punished.
- [Act 26:11 ESV] 11 And I punished them often in all the synagogues and tried to make them blaspheme, and in raging fury against them I persecuted them even to foreign cities.
- [2Co 6:9 ESV] 9 as unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and behold, we live; as punished, and yet not killed;
I offer this as a starting point for anyone to make a case that "Jesus took the punishment of [our] sins" and to deny this fact is "anathema". I cannot see it in scripture myself, so I think the proposed penalty is harsher than warranted.
As the saying goes ... "Unity in essentials, Liberty in non-essentials, Charity in all things" ... so without even a clear scripture on Jesus or us being "punished", this does not seem like an "essential".
civic
Active Member
Amen
Dizerner
Active Member
What can be too harsh for sinning against an infinitely Holy God?
That whole logic devalues God, and denies hell.
Lots of people want to draw the circle too big.
There was a Bahai on here who claimed to be a Christian.
Maybe you think he was, I don't know.
The Cross—the Atonement—the Blood of Jesus wherein he suffered our penalty—is the one single distinguishing element.
I cannot call a Crossless Christian a Christian, they are not following Christ.
"I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." (Gal. 2:21 NKJ)
That grace came through the Cross, and no other way.
Anything else is another Jesus and another Gospel that is anathema.
It gives another way to the Father other than Jesus' sacrifice.
Charity is not enabling the lost to call themselves Christians.
civic
Active Member
Yet Jesus never describes His atonement as justice or penal.
Things that make you go hmmmmm
Maybe your understating is wrong and you need to line it up with what Jesus said about His own death and what it accomplished. I have given you several verses where Jesus states in clearly.
And that addresses the fact that Jesus defeats death and sin how?
Adherent
Active Member
The Christian fundamentalists are well known for pushing their thoughts on PSA and other man made doctrine.
The proper context for interpreting the Bible is the world and perspective of its original writers, not the traditions, Western creeds, or historical European and American movements that came later. The Christian fundamentalists what you to believe their take on Christianity.
Here is what the word says.
You, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23
Jesus whom you crucified. Acts 2:36
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified. Acts 4:10
Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. Acts 5:30
They [rulers of this age] have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor. 2:8
That's a wrap on the case! It wasn't divine intervention that led to Jesus' demise; it was human actions. Indeed, the New Testament points the finger squarely at humanity for the death of Christ, not at God!
The proper context for interpreting the Bible is the world and perspective of its original writers, not the traditions, Western creeds, or historical European and American movements that came later. The Christian fundamentalists what you to believe their take on Christianity.
Here is what the word says.
You, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23
Jesus whom you crucified. Acts 2:36
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified. Acts 4:10
Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. Acts 5:30
They [rulers of this age] have crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Cor. 2:8
That's a wrap on the case! It wasn't divine intervention that led to Jesus' demise; it was human actions. Indeed, the New Testament points the finger squarely at humanity for the death of Christ, not at God!
DavidTree
Active Member
Your blood is tainted with sin therefore you cannot die for your sins = even if you take up your cross and follow JESUS.
This is not "past tense" but is a continuing Truth.
Next person = "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
Next person = "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
and so on......
Only One Man never sinned, therefore only His Blood can atone for our sin tainted blood.
FYI - some religions believe that you can self-abase and therefore come out of sin = works salvation
DavidTree
Active Member
Yes and No
Yes sinful men condemned an innocent man.
No, they did not override God's involvement by acting alone.
Isaiah 53:10
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
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