Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Correction: "Calvinism" is rooted in a "theologian's interpretation" of Scripture. It's just "one version" of "Theology". There are many versions, each consisting of some TRUTH, and some ERROR in varying proportion.
Why I believe in Reformed Doctrine
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Self-determinism is basically the definition of free will. We all have free will in the sense of self-determinism. We choose what we are most inclined to choose. Man, in his fallen state, has no inclination toward God, but that doesn't mean he has no free will. It simply means his inclination is a prison that confines his will to sin. As Paul says, we are slaves to sin.
Only God can change our inclination, which changes how we choose to exercise our self-determinism.
As for determinism itself, what you're addressing is how God determines how things play out. Joseph's brothers, of their own "free will" (self-determinism) tried to kill Joseph. Yet Joseph tells them, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good."
That level of God's control may make some feel uncomfortable, but it is what it is.
civic
Well-known member
Calvin Institutes 3:21:5 - All are not created on equal terms ,but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death.
According to Calvinist theory God hates most of humanity and is actively working to make sure they all end up in hell. That is a level of evil you should only attribute to Satan himself.
Billions of people are in hell because:
(1) they are not part of those who were Unconditionally Elected
(2) they were not granted Irresistible Grace
(3) because of sin that God unchangeably ordained by God for them to commit.
(4) because Jesus did not die for their sins.
People go to hell because of something God didn't do in them, not of anything they could have done.
Calvinist teach:
1. God wants people in hell
2. Humans can only go to hell if they have sin.
3. God decrees for people to sin and they cannot refrain
4. Conclusion: Therefore sin is something good that results in God’s pleasure.
If God has decreed to dam a person forever in eternity and God is the only one who can act on their behalf to change their plight, then God's choosing them for destruction is the first cause of their destruction, not sin. Sin is just the gun God uses to destroy the sinner
civic
Well-known member
These also refute God ordaining all things and determining evil to occur.
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.
Jeremiah 19:5
They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.
Jeremiah 32:35
They have built the high places of Baal in the Valley of Hinnom to make their sons and daughters pass through the fire to Molech--something I never commanded them, nor had it ever entered My mind, that they should commit such an abomination and cause Judah to sin
civic
Well-known member
Eternal / Exhaustive or Meticulous Divine Decree- Calvininism
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).
How do the Calvinists answer?
1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.
2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.
3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..
4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.
5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?
6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.
7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).
how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?
Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).
How do the Calvinists answer?
1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.
2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.
3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..
4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.
5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?
6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.
7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).
how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?
Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.
1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.
Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…
Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.
Kokomo
Member
Right and if divine determinism were true, then God’s character as a loving and gracious being is seriously called into question. The reason for this is clear: if everything that happens flows from the divine will expressed in a comprehensive decree that governs the world, then this would of necessity include all the evils and sins in the world. While no Calvinist would accept this conclusion, it seems to me to be inescapable.
5solas
New member
The doctrines of grace come from scripture.
Hmmm...ImCo,
IF the future is determined based upon OUR OWN FREE WILL CHOICES, then determined only refers to a prediction of our fate based upon our choices but is not the cause of our choices...
Chose A - get B.
Chose C - get D.
This sequence of choice and response determines our fate, the fate we chose ! but it DOES NOT CAUSE OUR FATE because we chose either A or C.
Chose to accept HIM as your saviour - getting salvation from any sin is an absolute predetermined fate. Chose to reject HIM as your saviour - being damned for your sins is an absolute predetermined fate. The predetermination for our eternal fate rests on YOUR CHOICE which predeterminism on earth only indicates but does NOT CAUSE!
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Correction: "The doctrines of Grace" are INTERPRETATIONS of what Scripture says.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Correction: The "doctrines of Grace" come from a "Theologian's Interpretation" of Scripture.
As a moderator, I know all such things
Diserner
Well-known member
trololo
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Non-sequitur.
Diserner
Well-known member
Do you really love a pig if all your care for it is just so you can have a bacon breakfast one day?
I am JonC....I know everything.
So, in your theory God loves everyone in hell?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Are you talking to me (Robert DeNiro voice)? I was pointing out that to say if Reformed doctrine is true, that means God hates most of humanity is a non-sequitur. It does not follow.
Please. Please for the sake of common sense (that is not so common among the Reformed) stop this nonsensical rhetoric that God is ruling sovereignly over the earth and mankind. He is not. Just pick out any passage in the scripture that is in the past tense or any prophecy that is in the future tense and try to prove that God has chosen the principle of sovereignty to interact with heaven and earth. It is probably the most senseless doctrine among many senseless doctrines of the Calvinists and the Reformed.
Ps 115:16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD’S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
Lu 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.
20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:
21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.
22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:
23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?
24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.
25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds)
26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.
27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
28 And when he had thus spoken, he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem.
1Co 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
A man who is under the absolute sovereignty of God is not a steward of anything and he cannot be "required" of God to be or to do anything.
My heads spins when I hear or read otherwise intelligent men bowing to such ignorance. The God I serve is nothing like the Reformed presents him. I mean nothing like him. They should be ashamed.
Rockson
Well-known member
A very revealing scripture on the subject. For God to give the earth to man for language to mean anything in any rational way that has to mean everything cannot be absolutely ordained by the creator in events that take place.
Here is where I believe Calvinism is most at fault for:
