Why did God allow it?

[atpollard]

@FreeInChrist asked some questions that deserved their own topic, so I split them off in hopes of discussing them:

6000 or 7000 or even longer years ago out Heavely Father hand molded a man from the dust of the earth.

Gen 2:7 7Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Then our Heavenly Father planted the garden, where there were rivers and He 15Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. THEN 16The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Realizing it was not good for Adam to be alone, all the animals were named and looked over but not a suitable companion for Adam, therefore our Heavenly Father provided Eve.

First of all, can you tell me if, as you believe, the elect were predestined to the image of Christ before the world began.... why would God have placed a forbidden fruit in the center of Paradise to tempt the man, even before God had provided the woman for him?

Creation (Adam, Eve, mankind, us) is not about MAN and our obedience/disobedience. We are not the center of God's universe and His plan. Everything in the OT points forward to a moment, an event ... Christ will die, be buried and rise from the grave triumphant. All of the NT letters point back to a single event ... Christ died, was buried and rose from the grave triumphant.

When we get glimpses into heaven, we see everything is all about God ... He is the center of all attention ... creation radiates out from God. He is surrounded by "super-angels" who are surrounded by masses of angels and people too great to count. Everyone and every thing continuously cries out in adoration and worship and praise to God. When Christ died, was buried and rose from the grave ... Revelation tells us that Heaven was silent. This central event was so astonishing and important and reverential that even the ETERNAL WORSHIP of GOD was silent to witness this event.

You asked why God placed a tree in the Garden with Adam to tempt man ... because Adam MUST fail the test if mankind will need a savior. and the whole PURPOSE of creation is for God the Son to be incarnated, to offer His life to redeem our life, in order that God might rise victorious. Fully God and fully man.

She was not provided immediately,

18Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.” 19Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him.

So now we have the man Adam, and the Woman, eventually called Eve.

And she was the one who tripped up first.

But my 2nd question is this...

If.... just disregarding the snake in all of this,... she ate the fruit then she got Adam to... which certainly had to be due to their having free will, just like the bright and morning star angel and 1/3 or the others in heaven....

Why do you think that the Heavenly Father provided the temptation, or perhaps we could say it was a test, when he knew
from His foreknowledge they would fail?

Adam and Eve is an extraordinary story about men and women and most of history.

Adam was given dominion. Adam had a responsibility to care for and lead and protect Eve ... not as he did, but as Christ does the Church. Paul speaks of this later, but it was first presented back in Genesis. That Eve was ignorant of the exact rule was Adam's fault. That Adam was standing there and did nothing to intervene was Adam's fault. That Adam chose to obey Eve rather than God was Adam's fault. Thus the Bible later makes clear that death comes through Adam.

Eve was created to follow Adam, to trust Adam, to be a co-worker that complimented Adam's leadership. Eve's curse was a consequence of Adam's failure. Women no longer trust the leadership of men (who no longer lead as Christ).

Thus the story ends with ADAM to blame for the sin of mankind and EVE to receive the promise that a WOMAN would bear the "seed" (offspring) that would undo the curse. This is not some "Plan B" where God is making the best of a bad situation ... Christ (crucified and risen) was always the whole point of CREATION! Adam and Eve are part of God's unfolding plan to bring GLORY to himself. [Jesus said as much.]

#3. Did the Heavenly Father intend for their downfall for reasons we can only guess at?

LAST. They were specifically punished for disobeying when they were sent from the garden. Obviously they were not predestined to be of the elect. With that being said, when did the predestination begin in man? Just take time to ponder what happened back then to many and the elect system does not appear to have been equally applied to those through the centuries.

Cane slew Abel. Was cane an elect? I don't think so.

Could it be that it came into more existence after Noah and the earth was starting all over again? But we still had those who
operated with free will and examples of such where we have the prodigal son who struck out on his own and then changed his mind and came back. These are just a couple examples and scriptures are full of them.

And I see it still possible that knowing the prophets and disciples were predestined to do what they did for Jesus and the Father.
That there are some, maybe even you... while others are given the free will to make their choice.

The ejection from the garden was not a punishment, but a gift. Adam and Eve were fallen. The only hope for "redemption" was THROUGH CHRIST and then "glorification" in "eternal life". To remain in the Garden with access to the tree of ETERNAL LIFE is to grant eternity in our present corrupted (fallen) state. Paul stated: "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that [it is] good. But now, [it is] no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but [how] to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will [to do], I do not do; but the evil I will not [to do], that I practice. Now if I do what I will not [to do], it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" - Romans 7:15-24 [NKJV]

Would you desire to spend eternity trapped in this state, or is it an act of mercy that our body dies that we might be raised imperishable and free from corruption? The GLORY is that there is a redeemer and He has chosen a redeemed to be His children.

Without the fall, human beings are obedient creations (no different than the mountains). With the fall comes the redemption and through redemption, the creation becomes a beloved child of God. Thus CREATION and the FALL are all about OUR GOOD and GOD'S GLORY.

 

[TibiasDad]

We are not the center of God's universe and His plan.

Then why did God/the Word create us? The story of redemption is about the salvation of mankind. We are the object of his actions.

God needs nothing outside of himself. He didn’t need to create, much less to self-promote his own greatness.

Scripture says “we love because he first loved us”; love, by definition, is not self-centered- it is always focused outward, always pointed toward something other than itself. If “God is love”, then it is impossible that his motivations are to glorify himself.


Doug

 

[TedT]

We are not the center of God's universe and His plan.

ImCo:

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation. It is in the heavenly marriage that HIS GLORY shines forth the strongest and most perfect in relationship with us, NOT in justice nor redemption which are merely aids to bring the marriage to fruition after to our moral stumbles.

HIS plan for all creation was the heavenly marriage.
HIS plan for each of us is the heavenly marriage.
Everything HE has ever done or will ever do conformed to this purpose, this plan, and He has never done anything that would slow this plan down or put it off or side track it in the least!

It implies that ALL of HIS being, all of HIS Sovereignty, all of HIS love, HIS righteousness and HIS nature as just have one perfect focus, to culminate HIS relationship with HIS creation in the heavenly marriage: one plan, one focus upon an ultimate value.

Therefore:
Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of every individual sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

This implies that GOD would always save anyone who could be saved from their sins to become HIS Bride, and would never condemn then for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
Isaiah 43:7, 21
7 "whom I created for my glory"
21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.

Ecc 7:29 Only this have I found: I have discovered that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.” Upright: S3477, yashar, straightforward, just, upright:... GOD created no one disgustingly corrupt, enslaved to sin and unable to be HIS Bride.

By their coming into being every single person must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by a mature free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible. No one inherited any sinfulness from Adam nor any judgement for any another person's sin.

... because Adam MUST fail the test

No one had to fall for any reason...

 

[TibiasDad]

I have come to realize that the fact that the full story of GOD's interaction with man on this earth ends with a heavenly marriage implies that the heavenly marriage was HIS purpose for our creation.

I think a simpler and more direct term would be relationship. God created us to be in a reciprocal relationship with him. Marriage is the pragmatic illustration of that desire for relationship.

Doug

 

[TedT]

Marriage is the pragmatic illustration of that desire for relationship.

Marriage is the absolute fulfillment of HIs desire to create those who could be HIS Bride by theri free will.

 

[TibiasDad]

Marriage is the absolute fulfillment of HIs desire to create those who could be HIS Bride by theri free will.

Everything boils down to relationships. From the initial declaration that “it is not good for man to be alone” to God referring to himself as Father, the concept of relationships is foundational to the biblical narrative.

Doug

 

[TedT]

“it is not good for man to be alone”

If our analysis of GOD's desire for us in our creation is to hold then we have a little conundrum...

If it was not good for Adam to be alone then GOD must not have made him alone as HE does not create not goods but only perfection. This implies that the not good must have originated in Adam, implying Adam had instituted this not goodness by his free will.

Does that not indicate some rebellion in Adam, some unfaith even before eating? And does not looking for a mate among the animals also indicated his resistance to GOD's plans for him with Eve? Surely GOD did not have him looking for a mate among the animals when HE already had Eve waiting in the wings or in HIS mind at least...

This not good dis-joint in our understanding of why (to be HIS Bride) and how (perfectly able to become HIS Bride) we were created certainly implies some disconnect between our understanding of
GOD's attributes and HIS desires in our creation and this story of the first people, a disconnect that we must attribute to Adam's lack of faith aka rebellion to his GOD's way for him.

Since GOD would never create anyone rebellious then Adam must have had a time of being able to choose to become rebellious before coming to the garden on the breath of GOD, a time in which he became a sinner by his own true free will.

 

[atpollard]

… then it is impossible that his motivations are to glorify himself.

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. - John 17:1-5 [ESV]

Impossible?

 

[atpollard]

No one had to fall for any reason...

If there had been no fall, would there be a redemption?
If there had been no fall, how would men be different from Cows? (Both are creations of God that obey the purpose for which they were created).

Why would the Son have needed to be incarnate? What need is there for a bride or a groom?
Redemption and Sonship comes from the fall and restoration: it is how we learn of the love and mercy of God and without a fall we only know of God’s holiness and Justice.

 

[TibiasDad]

When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. - John 17:1-5 [ESV]

Impossible?

“God is love…”
“Love seeks not its own …”
God seeks not his own for the sake of himself.

Jesus, the man, says that the Father has glorified him, and the Son wants to return the favor to his father. Glorify is this context has to do with honoring and praising for what he has done.

God is love, so all he does is for our benefit not for his own. He needs nothing outside of himself, period!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

If it was not good for Adam to be alone then GOD must not have made him alone as HE does not create not goods but only perfection.

God’s final pronouncement at the completion of creation was it was “very good”. He did not intend for perfection in the sense that nothing could go wrong, but that he had created things just as he intended them to be. Be careful not to put words into God’s mouth!


Doug

 

[TedT]

If there had been no fall, would there be a redemption?

Of couse not, we are redeemed from our fall.

If there had been no fall, how would men be different from Cows?

We were made in the image of GOD, cows were not. This means that we were created able to become a perfect bride for HIM by our free will acceptance of HIS marriage proposal. No other animal was created that way.

Humans were not created as human but as spirits who were later, after their fall, flung to Sheol in the earth Rev 12: 4-9, where they are sown (not created) by the breath of GOD into mankind,
Matt 13:36-39.