Who is a monotheist?

[Pancho Frijoles]

Imagine you go back in the time machine to ancient Athens and meet three persons buying goods in the market of the city.
You approach each of them and ask them about their religious convictions.

1. The first is a housewife and says she worships Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Hermes, Athena, Hades, Poseidon, Hephaestus, Ares, Apollos, Morpheus and Dyonisius. She seeks to please all of them, prays to all of them, and fears the judgement of all of them.
2. The second one is a sailor and he says he worships Zeus and Poseidon because only the two of them are gods. He seeks to please those two, prays only to those two and fears the judgement of only those two.
3. The third is a poet and says he worships only Zeus, because he is the only true god. He seeks to please only him, prays only to him and fears the judgement of him only.

Which of the three is monotheist and why?

NOTE: In this exercise, I will take the popular use of the term "monotheist" as a person worshiping only one god. Strictly speaking, that is monolatry and not necessarily monotheism. Some people can believe in the existence of many gods, but only one of them deserves to be worshiped.
However, out of simplification, for this exercise we will consider belief and worship as the same thing (If X is god, it should be worshiped; if X is not god, it shouldn't).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Dear @civic and @Dizerner:

I'm placing your posts here to continue the discussion. Please continue to contribute to the thread.

None as all are idols.

You are correct about montheism, but not about idolatry.

Idolatry is not just about physical representations but any false attribution of God.

Even Scripture in both OT and NT says there are demons behind the physical statues.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Yes, idolatry is a different thing.
A person could be monotheistic, and yet worship the painting or sculpture that represents that god, instead of the god that such image represents.
That person could be practicing idolatry, although still being monotheistic.
A person could believe only in Moloch and be seeking for children to be sacrificed in Moloch's shrine. He would still be monotheist, but we would not approve his behavior as godly.
Monotheism, as an intellectual stance, does not save any of us.

So, my position in regard to the opening question is that the poet, who worships only Zeus, is the monotheist among the three.
Now, the questions is why can we affirm that?

The question goes to the central issue of the doctrine of the Trinity.

The Greek poet we found in the market had a worship relationship with a single mind, a single will. A single divine person.
The housewife tries to keep a relationship with many minds, many wills.
The sailor tries to keep a relationship with two minds, two wills.

Neither the housewife nor the sailor are monotheists. I'm not saying that any of the three is in good or bad position before the eyes of God, saved or unsaved. I believe God's grace reaches all of them somehow.
All I'm saying is that only the poet has a monotheistic mindset.

 

[Dizerner]

Equating person to god again.

(sigh)

#3 is a monotheist because of one "god," not because of one "person."

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

#3 is a monotheist because of one "god," not because of one "person."

So, what if the housewife tells you that she really worships One God, called "The Pantheon", which is One Being made of 491 divine persons, each of the with their own mind, will, personality, plans, wishes, thoughts, etc. ?

Would you believe that the lady has a monotheistic mindset?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Equating person to god again.

(sigh)

Yes, absolutely.
That's the monotheistic mindset. One god = One person.

Otherwise, anyone could claim to be a monotheistic while keeping a relationship with 233 different persons.
What would be the distinction then between monotheism and polytheism?

Modalists are monotheists as they claim to relate to only One Mind, who manifests through different characters.

Some hinduists share this concept... they think that all their hundreds of deities are nothing but the manifestation of a Single Mind and Supreme Reality. These specific Hinduists also have a monotheistic mindset.
Our friend @101G also claims to relate with a Single Mind. So he has a monotheistic mind.

 

[civic]

Yes, absolutely.
That's the monotheistic mindset. One god = One person.

Otherwise, anyone could claim to be a monotheistic while keeping a relationship with 233 different persons.
What would be the distinction then between monotheism and polytheism?

Modalists are monotheists as they claim to relate to only One Mind, who manifests through different characters.

Some hinduists share this concept... they think that all their hundreds of deities are nothing but the manifestation of a Single Mind and Supreme Reality. These specific Hinduists also have a monotheistic mindset.
Our friend @101G also claims to relate with a Single Mind. So he has a monotheistic mind.

This statement of yours is incorrect below

Yes, absolutely.
That's the monotheistic mindset. One god = One person.

One person does not equal one god. That’s a false assumption.

 

[civic]

FYI- all 3 of these world religions are monotheistic - Judaism , Islam and Christianity ( Trinitarinism) . The other 2 are unitarian whereas Christianity is not.

Hope this helps !!!

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This statement of yours is incorrect below

Yes, absolutely.
That's the monotheistic mindset. One god = One person.

One person does not equal one god. That’s a false assumption.

If it is a false assumption, then what would you say if the housewife tells you that she really worships One God, called "The Pantheon", which is One Being made of 491 divine persons, each of them with their own mind, will, personality, plans, wishes, thoughts, etc. ?
What would you say, @Fred?

By the way, I want to leave clear that I believe that you all, Trinitarian friends, are monotheists in your real, daily life.
You relate with a Single Mind, not with three different minds.
What I do think is that Trinitarism, as an intellectual stance, is either
1) not monotheistic or
2) empty of any meaning

 

[civic]

If it is a false assumption, then what would you say if the housewife tells you that she really worships One God, called "The Pantheon", which is One Being made of 491 divine persons, each of them with their own mind, will, personality, plans, wishes, thoughts, etc. ?
What would you say, @Fred?

By the way, I want to leave clear that I believe that you all, Trinitarian friends, are monotheists in your real, daily life.
You relate with a Single Mind, not with three different minds.
What I do think is that Trinitarism, as an intellectual stance, is either
1) not monotheistic or
2) empty of any meaning

You are making a fallacious argument. This is the definition of pantheon below :

all the gods of a people or religion collectively.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

This is the definition of pantheon below :

all the gods of a people or religion collectively.

You're absolutely correct.
Therefore, we would know that the hypothetical claim of that housewife of being monotheistic cannot be true, because God is not a collective of persons.

If a person calls "God" a collective, or "God" a Pantheon, or Supreme Assembly, Great Summit or Highest Council, it is all the same. That person does not have a monotheistic stance.

What Trinitarism teaches is that three different minds are One Single Being called "God" that should be worshiped, which would make as much as sense as saying that 491 different minds are One Single Being called "Pantheon", that should be worshiped.

 

[Dizerner]

which would make as much as sense as saying that 491 different minds are One Single Being called "Pantheon", that should be worshiped.

False equivalence fallacy.

No one says the Pantheon are literally one being that all share the same nature.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

WHY AM I CONVINCED THAT MY TRINITARIAN FRIENDS ARE MONOTHEISTIC?

Because they practice monotheism.
I will prove it with 3 scenarios.

Suppose that a Baptist young lady is not sure about marrying Tony, Max, or remaining single for now. So she prays to God for guidance.
Would the following thought ever cross her mind? "Well, perhaps The Father will tell me I should marry Tony... Jesus will urge me to marry Max, and the Holy Spirt will advice to remain single..."

Of course not! She knows that the three of them will always be in agreement. Always. Likelihood of disagreement? Zero.

Suppose now that such young lady is reflecting on whether the way she rebuked her parents at dinner was wrong.
Would the following thought ever cross her mind? "Well, perhaps I offended the Father, because He was the one who gave the Ten Comandments... but not Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Jesus will be more patient and forgiving that the Holy Spirit... or perhaps the Holy Spirit does not care as much as Jesus"

Of course not! She knows that the three of them have the same expectations, are equally interested in her repentance. No one offers a different Way, nor issues a different comandment. This happens all the time. Always.


Finally, suppose that Baptist young lady is asking God to heal her little brother, who has an acute leukemia.
Would the following thought ever cross her mind? "Who knows, maybe the Father wants my brother to be healed, but Jesus does not, and the Holy Spirit just tells the other two that he doesn't have a clear preference. Maybe the Father and Jesus will argue for hours of what is best for my little brother and my family, while the Holy Spirit waits for them to make their mind and support the final decision.... or perhaps the Father and Jesus will resort to a voting decision, and will try to convince the Holy Spirit to support their particular vision. So what I'll do is to lobby them separately"

Of course not! She knows that the three of them want the same for his brother, and will express his will as one voice, without disagreements nor hard feelings.

CONCLUSION: In their daily life, Trinitarians relate with God as if the three persons had the same thoughts, wishes, plans, expectations, commandments and acts. In other words, as if God were one person.

So, what is the real relevance of a debate that has taken centuries, when both Unitarians and Trinitarians relate with God as if He were One Person?

 

[Dizerner]

Would you believe that the lady has a monotheistic mindset?

If she truly believed they all shared the same nature and being, then yes.

I would.

 

[Dizerner]

That's the monotheistic mindset. One god = One person.

No, it's not, lol.

You just pulled it out of your sweet patootie.

What would be the distinction then between monotheism and polytheism?

The sharing of being and nature.

This has already been stated.

These specific Hinduists also have a monotheistic mindset.

If they truly believed it, then yes.

 

[Dizerner]

Of course not! She knows that the three of them have the same expectations, are equally interested in her repentance. No one offers a different Way, nor issues a different comandment. This happens all the time. Always.

Irrelevant.

You cannot logically prove or assert three persons CANNOT always agree.

Else you deny free will.

So, in their daily life, Trinitarians relate with God as if the three persons had the same thoughts, wishes, plans, expectations, commandments and acts. In summary, as if God were one person.

Non sequitur and irrelevant.

If two persons feel like one person because of their perfect agreement, that does not logically make them one person.

So, what is the real relevance of a debate that has taken centuries, when both Unitarians and Trinitarians relate with God as if He were One Person?

Because God is THREE PERSONS.

And we should respect each of them for who they are.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

False equivalence fallacy.

No one says the Pantheon are literally one being that all share the same nature.

It doesn't matter. It's a hypothetical scenario. It could be with any other Pagan religion, with any person.

One Hinduist could be claiming to be monotheistic and believe only in Brahman, and then tell you that Brahman is the name of the collective of all individual personal gods.
How would you refute his claim?

Besides, Greeks held a variety of views on their religion, including monotheism, atheism, pantheism and everything in between.
The examples are not to discuss Greek religious spectrum, but the meaning of monotheism.

 

[civic]

False equivalence fallacy.

No one says the Pantheon are literally one being that all share the same nature.

Ditto

 

[Dizerner]

It doesn't matter

Definitions MATTER. Otherwise you can just say anything is anything.

How would you refute his claim?

There's literally nothing to refute; if he truly believes that, he is DEFINITIONALLY a monotheist.

Just has the wrong god.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

No, it's not, lol.

You just pulled it out of your sweet patootie.

No Dizerner. Rather billions of persons across history and geography share my view... starting with the Jews
Go and ask any Jew if he agrees with One God = One Person.
Then study all polytheistic religions. One god = One person. That's exactly why you were skeptical about the Greek housewife pretending to worship a single Being.

Having said that, Buddhists, Jainists, Confucianists, Taoists, and Pantheists in general could agree with you: One God does not equal One Person.

I encourage you, finally to examine carefully your own spiritual life, your own relationship with God.
Despite of what you declare in an Internet Forum, you love, trust and obey God as if he were One Single Mind.