Where did original sin come from ?

[e v e]

God does NOT Will us His Souls to be in that evil monster Adam.

Nor did He will the horrible fall..

 

[TedT]

My reply...

"And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Gen 2:25)

This means they felt no embarrassment for being naked, which means they were like a child who knows no better to run around naked. They did not have the knowledge of good and evil. They were in a state of innocence.

So, will you tell me what there is to be ashamed of to be unclothed as GOD made you when you are in the privacy of your garden? Are we Puritans imbuing any nudity with evil and shame?

And if there is no shame in nudity, in being unclothed as you were made by the only other person around, why did eating the fruit of knowledge open their eyes to their nakedness, and not that their eating was their sin ??? IF naked means only to be unclothed and not `rm, cunning in sin?

This means by eating the fruit they acquired the knowledge of good and evil and realized they were naked and felt embarrassed-ashamed of being so, which means the fruit did what it was to do, give them the knowledge to know they should not be naked.

So there is an evilness in nakedness (which they could only appreciate after they became sinful) and GOD created that evil by creating them naked? After they ate, nothing changed but their opinion of their being unclothed as sinful...but that is how they were created so how could it be sinful? After eating they were sinners so how can we trust their opinion of being naked as shameful was not a sinful opinion?

Except for children and those who have seared their conscience, we all know it is wrong to run around naked and would be ashamed if we were naked in front of others.

But this ignores that they were ashamed of being as GOD made them in the privacy of their garden, not in front of anyone, and ignores the true reason they should be ashamed, ie, their having broken the command not to eat?

Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. which tells us clearly that the law was NOT given to the righteous to steer their decision but to the sinful to convict them of their sin,
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. which suggests that the command to not eat was given to them as sinners to convict them of their sinfulness as it did, very well...they saw their `RM, not their nudity.

 

[TedT]

God is not evil... nor creates evil.. ever.

AMEN!!! I BELIEVE THIS TOTALLY! So totally that I must reject the foolish doctrine of our being created sinful in Adam.

HE put us Into Adam where the doctrine of original sin has us get our sinfulness and therefore our susceptibility to death BY HIS WILL, NOT OUR WILL!

Death is the wages of sin therefore death proves sinfulness.
Babies in the womb die, proving their sinfulness...
so the doctrine of original sin has our being in Adam as the cause of our sinfulness because we are too tabula rasa to sin. We are in Adam by HIS will, not our own so IF being in Adam is the cause our sinfulness, GOD causes our sinfulness by placing us in Adam.

So IF GOD does NOT cause our sinfulness then our being in Adam is not the cause of human sinfulness at conception or birth, a sinfulness proven by death in the womb.

Another thing I believe in totally is that no one dies for another's sin!
Adam is the Father of us all.
Ezek 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. Berean Standard Bible

Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. Berean Standard Bible

Jer 31:30 Instead, each will die for his own iniquity. Berean Standard Bible

These verses deny that we die because of our father Adam's sins, and that we die, even babes in the womb, all die, for our own self chosen iniquity.

So where does the sentence of death come from for babes in the womb?? If not from a holy GOD and if not from Adam, then only from our own free will decision to sin, to rebel against HIS command, do we become sinful and liable to death in the womb.

 

[TibiasDad]

Maybe because the part that has meaning for me is in the part that you pass over and don't quote. But I also do not expect you to see what I see in any verse because you do not have the eyes to see the theology of our pre-conception existence (PCE) yet at all. If it was openly seen, then it would not be hidden and would be part of every doctrinal hermeneutic...

I also have no idea what you believe about these verses in which you scorn my interpretative offerings because you just claim I am wrong without telling me what the truth really is... I look forward to your interpretation of both Col 1:23 and Matt 13:36-39.

The part of this long verse I'm referring to is the following: Col 1:23...if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, ...Berean Standard Bible
in the meaning of the implication of the gospel which we have heard having already been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, in which every creature under heaven
surely may be read to refer to every person ever created without doing any damage to the meaning of the words but only bumps heads with orthodoxy's insistence that people are being newly created (as sinners) all the time.

I am told that has been proclaimed is a past tense which indicates a finished and completed action which then may be repeated in the future. If every creature under heaven has heard this proclamation as a finished act, then it is not being finished here and now on earth, implying that we all heard this gospel in the distant past, pre-earth as pre-conception existence theology contends.

IF every person ever created has heard the gospel then there can't be new people being created sinful and needing to learn the gospel and make a free will choice (while enslaved to sin) to accept it or not. Nor does this every creature under heaven cover the billions of people who never heard the gospel at all in history past in which billions more people have never heard the gospel in the world than the few who have heard it in this last 2000 years while this verse contends that every person has heard it.

So we see there is a choice here, not just an open and shut case that pce can't possibly be found in this verse.


The meaning I attach to Matt 13:36-39 is explicit in the use of the word EXPLAIN, V36:
Strong's 1285. diasapheó - to make clear, explain fully
and from Thayer's Greek Lexicon: 1. to make clear or plain, to explain, unfold, declare.
I contend that to use a metaphor or other literary device in an explanation of a metaphor is to not explain it at all but only to provide an extension of the metaphor. Iow, verses 37-39 are to be taken at face value as the gospel truth of who the weeds and the good seed are and how we got to be here in this world.

Sheep are NOT reborn goats.
Good seed are NOT reborn tares.

The Son of Man sows the sinful people of the kingdom into the world.
The devil sows the reprobate people of the evil one into the world.
That means they are separated into these groups before they get sown / born into this world, not after.
And for those who need the reminder, to sow does not mean to create but to move from a storage bin to a field for growing. The storage bin for sinful spirits would seem to be Sheol as per: Ps 9:17 The wicked will RETURN to Sheol—all the nations who forget God.
Berean Standard Bible. To return means in ordinary language to go back to someplace you have been before, which in this verse refers to Sheol, even though the KJV does its best to dissuade us from ever seeing the word return by their deliberate mistranslation of return to hide from our perusal what they consider a heresy.

I’m sorry TedT, but I’m going to simply say I disagree and move on. I don’t have to time or energy to go through your thinking.

Be at peace,

Doug

 

[Bronson]

I’m sorry TedT, but I’m going to simply say I disagree and move on. I don’t have to time or energy to go through your thinking.

Be at peace,

Doug

I myself like to keep things simple. To me original sin came when Satan wanted to exalt himself above God. He wanted to be top banana.

For you have said in your heart: ... I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14).

 

[Joe]

So, will you tell me what there is to be ashamed of to be unclothed as GOD made you when you are in the privacy of your garden? Are we Puritans imbuing any nudity with evil and shame?

And if there is no shame in nudity, in being unclothed as you were made by the only other person around, why did eating the fruit of knowledge open their eyes to their nakedness, and not that their eating was their sin ??? IF naked means only to be unclothed and not `rm, cunning in sin?

So there is an evilness in nakedness (which they could only appreciate after they became sinful) and GOD created that evil by creating them naked? After they ate, nothing changed but their opinion of their being unclothed as sinful...but that is how they were created so how could it be sinful? After eating they were sinners so how can we trust their opinion of being naked as shameful was not a sinful opinion?

But this ignores that they were ashamed of being as GOD made them in the privacy of their garden, not in front of anyone, and ignores the true reason they should be ashamed, ie, their having broken the command not to eat?

Timothy 1:9 We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, etc, etc. which tells us clearly that the law was NOT given to the righteous to steer their decision but to the sinful to convict them of their sin,
Rom 3:20 Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. which suggests that the command to not eat was given to them as sinners to convict them of their sinfulness as it did, very well...they saw their `RM, not their nudity.

Let me be simple. We know it is wrong to be running around naked.

The text clearly points out they ate, their minds were opened to know that being naked was wrong, and then they covered their bodies with leaves.

Does God want us to run around naked? No. Why? Because we know better! Why do we know better? Because A&E ate the fruit from the tree of G&E and now we know it is morally wrong like God knows. Was it morally wrong before they ate? No. Why? Because they were in a state of innocence, not knowing right and wrong like God knows.

When a man runs around naked he gets arrested. Why? Because he knows it is wrong.
When a baby runs around naked he is not arrested. Why? Because the baby does not know it is wrong yet.

Make sense?

God Bless

 

[e v e]

that assumes there is correspondence of 'here'

and how it was in eden...


but they are two completely different realities

 

[TibiasDad]

I myself like to keep things simple. To me original sin came when Satan wanted to exalt himself above God. He wanted to be top banana.

For you have said in your heart: ... I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High”’ (Isaiah 14:12-14).

That would be the very first sin, yes. Adam’s is the first in the context of human history.

Doug

 

[TedT]

Let me be simple. We know it is wrong to be running around naked.

We know it is wrong for SINNERS to be running around naked.

But, in private as righteous, in full communion with their GOD who made them that way?? Neh, not buying it anymore...

**Argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people"), ie, everyone knows and agrees, is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so.

When a baby runs around naked he is not arrested. Why? Because the baby does not know it is wrong yet.

The words "runs around" are specious...
This description of babes running around not not knowing it is right or wrong certainly applies to the newly created, unsophisticated definition of Adam and Eve without any society and in their own garden?

 

[TedT]

To me original sin came when Satan wanted to exalt himself above God. He wanted to be top banana.

My only addition to this is that NO ONE who definitely knew the glory and eternal power of our LORD would ever exalt himself above GOD. Therefore Satan must have made his decision based upon faith, an unproven hope, based upon YHWH's proclamation of HIS deity and HIS gospel, before any proof was offered.

We are told that the proof offered to every person so none has any excuse for not bowing was the creation of the physical universe, Rom 1:18-20 which must have occurred AFTER Satan's rebellion or Satan would never have rebelled because he would know to his core that he could not duplicate such an event! He even sang the praises of the proven GOD as we learn from Job 38:7 ...while the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Berean Standard Bible

 

[e v e]

the isaiah chapter cited above by someone re: lucifer is not about lucifer but about adam.
If you consider that, much is more clear..

 

[e v e]

We know it is wrong for SINNERS to be running around naked.

But, in private as righteous, in full communion with their GOD who made them that way?? Neh, not buying it anymore...

**Argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people"), ie, everyone knows and agrees, is a fallacious argument which is based on claiming a truth or affirming something is good because the majority thinks so.


The words "runs around" are specious...
This description of babes running around not not knowing it is right or wrong certainly applies to the newly created, unsophisticated definition of Adam and Eve without any society and in their own garden?

there is nothing evil in eden that
they were naked... at all... which means they had nothing hidden from God and were innocent..
also, male as covering of female means that there is no reason to think that ANYONE but that male could see his female anyway..
where male is speech, action, and the protective covering...in the same way as (being in His image) the
hebrew males protected the ark.

in eden, the mind and consciousness was set to God's thinking and concepts ...

so while to the carnal mind that innocence 'appears to be' ignorance, the terms are not the same...

the prohibited 'fruit' is that God said NOT to partake in the thinking and concepts of the evil, satanic realm (its fruit!), which has a different understanding and concepts of good and evil... just as a sociopath will have his own version of 'morality.' and in fact, the thinking of good and evil in this world fits that of the evil realm exactly. ..Christ said be not of here... and die to this world... and Follow Him.

The evil realm 'good and evil' concepts do not correspond to God's realm and His Good. For He does nothing Evil and nothing in creation is evil.
In our Land, which is paradise, there is no physical death, labor, sweat, fleshbody childbirth, etc.

 

[e v e]

Adam was told to not touch and interact with the satanic realm = the evil realm = eat its fruit. Every concept of the evil realm is evil, even it it 'seems good.'

 

[TedT]

there is nothing evil in eden that
they were naked...

I agree being unclothed in Eden was not sinful...but then why did they see their nakedness when their eyes were opened ? that is, unless nakedness `RM should be read as cunning in sin, `RM as it is for the serpent in the very next verse?

 

[TedT]

For He does nothing Evil and nothing in creation is evil.

Easy to say unless you believe we are created sinners in Adam...

 

[e v e]

Easy to say unless you believe we are created sinners in Adam...

i don't know what you mean by that

we came to be in our original eden body in eden, and not the current body or earth because of adam

 

[e v e]

I agree being unclothed in Eden was not sinful...but then why did they see their nakedness when their eyes were opened ? that is, unless nakedness `RM should be read as cunning in sin, `RM as it is for the serpent in the very next verse?

they were no longer IN God.

 

[TedT]

i don't know what you mean by that

we came to be in our original eden body in eden, and not the current body or earth because of adam

???

 

[TedT]

I agree being unclothed in Eden was not sinful...but then why did they see their nakedness when their eyes were opened ? that is, unless nakedness `RM should be read as cunning in sin, `RM as it is for the serpent in the very next verse?

they were no longer IN God.

Ummm, so, what was not sinful but righteous in the sight of GOD suddenly became sinful because they were now sinners?

If that is your contention, I disagree - GOD does not change.

If I got it wrong and that's not what you impy, then please educate me...

 

[e v e]

Ummm, so, what was not sinful but righteous in the sight of GOD suddenly became sinful because they were now sinners?

If that is your contention, I disagree - GOD does not change.

If I got it wrong and that's not what you impy, then please educate me...

by turning to satan they were no longer within God's protection but instead following satan no? In the carnal Self instead of listening to God.