civic
Active Member
Until God opens up the mind and heart we are stuck with our bias and prejudices regarding our beliefs. I know I had the blinders on defending Calvinism at all costs for several decades.
What's Wrong with Calvinism?
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You addressed nothing
That statement was made during the earthly ministry of Christ.
And the promise of the Spirit was stated to be upon the glorification of Christ, which had not yet occurred, and was
dependent upon believing in Christ, who was not fully revealed in the old covenant
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
You are ignoring multiple facts and arguing for something that was never stated.
Where do you read that the Old Testament saints had experienced the kingdom of God spoken of?
Where do you read all Old Testament saints had the faith in Christ that the New Testament states is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit?
Where do you read of all Old Testament saints who died joining God in heaven?
Where do you read all the Old Testament saints were born again?
Where?
Did you read?
That statement was made during the earthly ministry of Christ.
Hello
It was not made in the old covenant
So how did you address the following
And the promise of the Spirit was stated to be upon the glorification of Christ, which had not yet occurred, and was
dependent upon believing in Christ, who was not fully revealed in the old covenant
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
You are ignoring multiple facts and arguing for something that was never stated.
Where do you read that the Old Testament saints had experienced the kingdom of God spoken of?
You did not answer.
Where do you read all Old Testament saints had the faith in Christ that the New Testament states is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit?
You did not answer.
Where do you read of all Old Testament saints who died joining God in heaven?
You did not answer.
Where do you read all the Old Testament saints were born again?
You did not answer.
Where?
Exactly. Faith is the means or instrument of Gods grace.nope faith is the means, the cause of salvation- grace just precedes the process.
Did you read? Our Lords very words? Let me repeat them for you. "Unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven. Verse 5 "unless one is born of water and the Spirit he CANNOT enter the kingdom of heaven."
Thats what I am saying genius. Its NOT BECAUSE OF. Faith is the means or instrument used by God. Your saved by grace bt the means or instrument of faith. Hence it is a gift of God.
You ignored much and posted nothing to address the actual point
Did you read?
That statement was made during the earthly ministry of Christ.
Hello
It was not made in the old covenant
So how did you address the following
And the promise of the Spirit was stated to be upon the glorification of Christ, which had not yet occurred, and was
dependent upon believing in Christ, who was not fully revealed in the old covenant
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
You are ignoring multiple facts and arguing for something that was never stated.
Where do you read that the Old Testament saints had experienced the kingdom of God spoken of?
You did not answer.
Where do you read all Old Testament saints had the faith in Christ that the New Testament states is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit?
You did not answer.
Where do you read of all Old Testament saints who died joining God in heaven?
You did not answer.
Where do you read all the Old Testament saints were born again?
You did not answer.
Where?
No answers
This seems to be a consistent Calvinist tactic.
"Unless one is born again He cannot see the kingdom of heaven". I will let Christ do the talking for me.
Christ is not talking for you
He did not say all Old Testament saints had experienced the kingdom spoken of in the New Covenant
He did and as does the rest of the New Testament indicate that faith is necessary to be born again through reception of the Holy Spirit
A fact you continue ignoring
And you still have not yet answered
Here is another point your position ignores
Nicodemus asked
John 3:9–18 (NASB95) — 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Desiring to know how men can be born again
Jesus had an answer that required faith in him.
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
My position I share with my Lord. It is as follows: "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven."
I did not say He was taliking foe me. He us talking for Himself. I agree with Him. He does not need to to clarify what He plainly said.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
You are not save because God picked you and then gave you your faith or the means to understand.
You are saved because you came into the understanding of what it meant.
You say God first chooses you THEN Give you the needed faith...... because Faith is the means or instrument used by God.....
HOW.... How does God get that faith into a person? By Visions? By street corner preachers? By Sunday school classes?
OR SIMPLY SUPERNATURALLY.?
As for me... I never said God was not instrumental in my faith building.... After all, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God no matter if you were predestined 50,000 years before Adam or heard John 3:16 and it made sense to you.
The heavenly Father is far more intelligent then most people can comprehend. He is not only omniscient, he knows every thought that ever passed through your mind. And he knows who will and will not come to the necessary faith and then have their spiritual rebirth to become a child of his, and who just does not give a tinker's dam to anything other then their selfserving interests.
Our heavenly Father never needed to premake the "reprobate" because He absolutely created a perfect system that
keeps Hm in control , giving us what we need to believe/faith , repent, and have our spiritual rebirths and anxiously await the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus.
You do not believe this or even want to. IDC.
Every tub stands on it's own bottom and is no different with things of God.
My position I share with my Lord. It is as follows: "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of heaven."
Maybe its your heart that has closed? Naa, can't be right?
Really? According to 1 Corinthians 2 only the Spirit understands the things of God. So how did you come to understand them? Read the whole chapter
So what. Why would He tell him he had to be born again if He could not be at that time????? Keeping in mind He is speaking in the present tense still under the Old Covenant.
Again, I never said He did. What He did say is you MUST be born again to see the kingdom of God. A FACT you continue to ignore.
You are ignoring scripture again
And assume Christ was speaking of an Old Covenant reality
But Here is another point your position ignores
Nicodemus asked
John 3:9–18 (NASB95) — 9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?”
Desiring to know how men can be born again
Jesus had an answer that required faith in him.
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 “If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 “No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 “He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Thus, in holding your position, you ignore much scripture and assume the Old Covenant saints were in the kingdom of God spoken of in John's gospel had existed during the old covenant era
But you do not have a single verse that states such.
There you go again with a falsehood
I affirm one must be born again to see the particular kingdom introduced in the New Testement
You are however simply assuming what Christ spoke of is an Old Testament reality
Christ is introducing a kingdom that requires faith in himself and the permanent indwelling of the Spirit
These did not exist in the old covenant.
And you produce nothing at all to show such.
Newsflash: Nicodemus existed during the time of the New Covenant. It's introduction and it's inaugeration
And in case you did not know it John the baptist was introducing it
Matt 3:1–2 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
Jesus himself
Mark 1:14–15Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Noting the time is now fulfilled
Faith is granted by the word of God
Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.
John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB 95) — 13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.
Romans 10:6–14 (NASB 95) — 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
