He said you must be born again. You claim OT saints do not have to be born again. How else should one interpret what you said? Did Old Testament saints have to be born again ti see the kingdom of heaven? Clarify your position.
What's Wrong with Calvinism?
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civic
Active Member
no grace precedes both salvation and faith.
Good. Then its not because of faith then.
civic
Active Member
Sure it is since Gods grace precedes both salvation and faith. The text declares that fact.
Salvation is because of grace and faith is the means a person uses to gain salvation.
I guess you don’t believe salvation comes through faith , that the righteous shall live by faith , that faith comes by hearing the word of Christ , the gospel , that the new birth as Peter says comes after gear ibg and believing the gospel, the word of God.
hope this helps!!!!
You must be born again to see the kingdom of heaven
That is to experience his kingdom.
I never stated anyone could see the kingdom without being born again.
To claim that is to present a total falsehood.
Nowhere in scripture however do you read of being born again under the old covenant.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
No!!! There are dozens of references that say you are wrong. Through has other meanings then what by want to believe.
4 sources of synonyms and they all include the basic same ones......
Synonyms for "through" include "across," "via," "during," and "by means of." These words can be used in various contexts to convey similar meanings.
Thesaurus.com
preposition as in by way of
as a consequence, as a result, at the hand of, because of, by, by dint of, by means of, by reason, by the agency of, by virtue of, for, in consequence of, in virtue of, per, through the medium of, using, via, with, with the help of
PowerThesarsus.org
Has 550 synonyms... and 239 prepositions.
See the link cause I am not going to c&p them here.
THROUGH Synonyms: 1 550 Similar Words & Phrases
Find 1 550 synonyms for Through to improve your writing and expand your vocabulary.
www.powerthesaurus.org
through - WordReference.com English Thesaurus
through - WordReference thesaurus: synonyms, discussion and more. All Free.
Synonyms:
owing to, because of, as a result of, from, out of, by dint of (dated), by way of, by means of, by virtue of, by reason of, as a consequence of, in consequence of (formal), at the hand of, by the hand of, by the grace of, thanks to
Sorry, but if your going to say the verse means saved by grace because of faith then faith precedes grace. Which of course is silly.
Really? "by means of". There ya go. Saved by faith by the means if faith. Whete is "because of" as civic contends?No!!! There are dozens of references that say you are wrong. Through has other meanings then what by want to believe.
4 sources of synonyms and they all include the basic same ones......
Synonyms for "through" include "across," "via," "during," and "by means of." These words can be used in various contexts to convey similar meanings.Merriam-Webster
Thesaurus.com
preposition as in by way of
as a consequence, as a result, at the hand of, because of, by, by dint of, by means of, by reason, by the agency of, by virtue of, for, in consequence of, in virtue of, per, through the medium of, using, via, with, with the help of
PowerThesarsus.org
Has 550 synonyms... and 239 prepositions.
See the link cause I am not going to c&p them here.
THROUGH Synonyms: 1 550 Similar Words & Phrases
Find 1 550 synonyms for Through to improve your writing and expand your vocabulary.
Sense: Preposition: as a result ofthrough - WordReference.com English Thesaurus
through - WordReference thesaurus: synonyms, discussion and more. All Free.www.wordreference.com
Synonyms:
owing to, because of, as a result of, from, out of, by dint of (dated), by way of, by means of, by virtue of, by reason of, as a consequence of, in consequence of (formal), at the hand of, by the hand of, by the grace of, thanks to
Good. Then Old Testament were born again otherwise they could not see the kingdom of heaven. As you stated above.
When Christ spoke those words the Old Covenant was still in effect. He speaks in the present tense. You must not, not you will be. COMMON SENSE
Some by's for you
Acts 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Acts 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.’
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”
Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Rom 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Rom 4:16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Gal 2:16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.
Gal 3:8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.”
Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Sorry, but that would only show that the Old Testament saints could not at that time experience the kingdom being spoken of
You have alternated between making false claims and ignoring scripture.
But the facts are
Nowhere in scripture, however, do you read of being born again under the old covenant.
You have failed to deal with the fact the Spirit was not poured out so as to indwell all saints causing the new birth until the time of Christ's glorification.
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
The pouring out of the spirit was prophesied in the old covenant as a future event
Ezekiel 36:26–27 (NASB 95) — 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
How can a future prophesy be a current event?
Now when the Spirit is received, men will experience the kingdom.
Can you deny faith in Christ is necessary for the indwelling?
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
And you will have to show exceptions to the rule. You must be born again means only some have to be born again.
That statement was made during the earthly ministry of Christ.
And the promise of the Spirit was stated to be upon the glorification of Christ, which had not yet occurred, and was
dependent upon believing in Christ, who was not fully revealed in the old covenant
John 7:38–39 (KJV 1900) — 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
You are ignoring multiple facts and arguing for something that was never stated.
Where do you read that the Old Testament saints had experienced the kingdom of God spoken of?
Where do you read all Old Testament saints had the faith in Christ that the New Testament states is necessary for the indwelling of the Spirit?
Where do you read of all Old Testament saints who died joining God in heaven?
Where do you read all the Old Testament saints were born again?
Where?
Its called 2÷2. If Chrsit said you must be born again to see the kongdom of God. Where are the exceptions? What we can see is if they were not born again they did not see the kingdom of heaven. Now, were they the exception? How do they see the kingdom of heaven? Where does the Bible make that distinction?
civic
Active Member
nope grace precedes both faith and salvation like I demonstrated from the passage.
Maybe these 2 simple bible versions will allow you to see its meaning regarding grace and salvation
Amplified Bible
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;
Contemporary English Version
You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve. This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
Darby Bible Translation
For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God's gift:
hope this helps !!!
No kidding. Under the OC.
Oh good. So faith does not trigger grace. So its through faith not because of faith.
civic
Active Member
through is used once whereas mine is used 111 times BECAUSE OF.
Word Origin
a prim. preposition
Definition
through, on account of, because of
NASB Translation
account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always* (2), because (111), between* (1), briefly* (1), charge* (1), constantly (1), continually* (6), during (1), forever* (1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then* (1), so* (1), therefore* (16), this reason* (1), this* (1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through* (1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why* (27).
Ahhh...so on account of grace we have faith. Excellent. So grace is the means or instrument. Wierd it never mentions your will or choice.
civic
Active Member
nope faith is the means, the cause of salvation- grace just precedes the process.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I did not write the thesauruses... I can provide from multiple ones.
@civic is 1000% correct on what he says.....
YOU have tunnel vision .... you are incapable of a reasoning thought.....
through or by means of mean exactly the same thing in the scripture.... I cannot help that someone translated a word and they all
jumped all over it.... likely because they all know that the meant the same thing in that verse.
