What's Wrong with Calvinism?

DEATH — a term that, when applied to the lower orders of living things such as plants and animals, means the end of life. With reference to human beings, however, death is not the end of life. The Bible teaches that we are more than physical creatures; we are also spiritual beings. For man, therefore, physical death does not mean the end of existence but the end of life as we know it and the transition to another dimension in which our conscious existence continues.

The Bible speaks of death in a threefold way: physical, spiritual, and eternal. The first physical death of a human being recorded in the Bible is that of Abel, who was murdered by his brother Cain (Gen. 4:8). However, death itself, in both the physical and spiritual sense, is first mentioned by God Himself (Gen. 2:17). In the Genesis account of the FALL both physical and spiritual death come as a result of sin (Rom. 5:12–21).

Various attitudes toward death are expressed in the Bible, from dread to anticipation. The ancient Hebrews regarded death as entrance into SHEOL, where they were cut off from everything dear in life, including God and loved ones. But God revealed to the psalmist that the Redeemer God is both in heaven and in Sheol (Ps. 139:7–8), and He is able to bring a person out of Sheol (“the grave”, 1 Sam. 2:6).

Because “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23), all people are spiritually dead—separated from God who is the Source of spiritual life. Sin makes a person hate the light and despise the truth; it causes one to break God’s laws and to become insensitive to holy things. Everyone who has not been redeemed by Christ is spiritually dead (Luke 15:32; Eph. 2:1–3; Col. 2:13).

The Bible also speaks of “the second death” (Rev. 2:11), which is eternal death, the everlasting separation of the lost from God in HELL. The “second death” is equated with “the lake of fire” (Rev. 20:14); “the lake which burns with fire and brimstone . . . is the second death” (Rev. 21:8).

The apostle Paul speaks of death as an enemy: “The last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (1 Cor. 15:26). In His resurrection, Jesus conquered death—physical, spiritual, and eternal. Through fear of death, people are subject to bondage (Heb. 2:15); but “our Savior Jesus Christ . . . has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Tim. 1:10).


Nelson’s New Illustrated Bible Dictionary
So, please detail this "spiritual thing" you find in the life of Adam before he supposedly "fell"?

Posting a reference from a dictionary doesn't do anything but present the dictionary's point of view.

Can you consider what Jesus said is very important. I don't think people actually pay attention to what Jesus said.

Joh 3:11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you do not receive our testimony.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

Notice how Jesus clearly said that He wasn't saying anything "heavenly" to Nicodemus. Rather, it was ALL earthly.

Can you tell me how you interpret this?
 
Posting a reference from a dictionary doesn't do anything but present the dictionary's point of view.
Who knew? But it just be a more informed point of view then we get from some posters. Reading books is a good way to learn. You just have to pick the right ones.
 
Who knew? But it just be a more informed point of view then we get from some posters. Reading books is a good way to learn. You just have to pick the right ones.

I know how to pick the right ones. The manuscripts of the Old and New Testament. Been studying them for many years. I bet you start with the dictionary right?

I don't. I may reference someone's "point of view" but I never start there. Never. I want to know what was really said. To know that, you must do what I have already done. I can tell you haven't done what I have done.

When you start with "dictionaries" you're always going to see things from the perspective/point of view of where you started.

So. Prove me wrong in this. How many different dictionaries did you reference? How many choices have you reviewed?

I can tell you, I'm way ahead of you. I'm challenging you. Please stick around and participate in this challenge. I will do us both good.
 
I know how to pick the right ones. The manuscripts of the Old and New Testament. Been studying them for many years. I bet you start with the dictionary right?

I don't. I may reference someone's "point of view" but I never start there. Never. I want to know what was really said. To know that, you must do what I have already done. I can tell you haven't done what I have done.

When you start with "dictionaries" you're always going to see things from the perspective/point of view of where you started.

So. Prove me wrong in this. How many different dictionaries did you reference? How many choices have you reviewed?

I can tell you, I'm way ahead of you. I'm challenging you. Please stick around and participate in this challenge. I will do us both good.
Everyone has their own way of Bible study. Mine works for me. I start wit a topic I want to know more about, then Dig Deeper.
 
Everyone has their own way of Bible study. Mine works for me. I start wit a topic I want to know more about, then Dig Deeper.

Once you choose the topic, where do you go next? Even the order of understanding is affected by what topic you want to know first, second, third.....

It shows your own heart and desires. Sometimes you're lead into this by others.

Ultimately, some of these choices affected my journey. It will affect your journey. Traditions seek to keep people busy learning the lies they fabricated.

I did it myself. I know. Been there. Many years later, I regret so many things.

For example, many people want to know the topic "Calvinism and Armininism". They buy all the books. They trace the histories and learn the narratives. They can quote countless authors and historical records. All in the name of "learning" about "God".

All they end up with is the "point of view" of Calvin or Arminius.

I battle this. I have for a very long time. It is difficult to get people to abandon these men and their teachings. Both are horribly wrong in so many ways.

What is your favorite topic and the topic you know the best?
 
Once you choose the topic, where do you go next? Even the order of understanding is affected by what topic you want to know first, second, third.....

It shows your own heart and desires. Sometimes you're lead into this by others.

Ultimately, some of these choices affected my journey. It will affect your journey. Traditions seek to keep people busy learning the lies they fabricated.

I did it myself. I know. Been there. Many years later, I regret so many things.

For example, many people want to know the topic "Calvinism and Armininism". They buy all the books. They trace the histories and learn the narratives. They can quote countless authors and historical records. All in the name of "learning" about "God".

All they end up with is the "point of view" of Calvin or Arminius.

I battle this. I have for a very long time. It is difficult to get people to abandon these men and their teachings. Both are horribly wrong in so many ways.

What is your favorite topic and the topic you know the best?
Favorite topic is Salvation and Gods love. The one I know the best is eternal security.

I was never a Calvinist, my husband was but he left if. I know a lot about "Calvinism and Armininism". but I'm not and never have been ether one.
 
No

Now will you respond?

Men are drawn by the word

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
No? So you are not "respone-able"? LOL
 
According to your logic it must be so. So does no man mean some men?
no man meant no man that Jesus was talking to which were the Jews who already listened and learned from the Father. The Jews who did not listen and learn from the Father also rejected the Son.

CONTEXT
 
No? So you are not "respone-able"? LOL
I stated No in response to

Can you come before being drawn?

Now will you respond?

Men are drawn by the word

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

And yes we are responsible to respond to the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Cor 15:1–4 Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose. For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he was raised up on the third day according to the scriptures,
1 Cor 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 
Thanks for making my point. If I grant you permission; what does that mean?
Nowhere did such happen

The opposite however did

Presby02 said:
Exactly. Not because of it

You claimed the word "through" cannot mean because and you were contradicted by the copilot search

Copilot search

The word "through" can indicate "because of" in certain contexts, but it is not interchangeable.
Grant can mean to permit or enable.
 
No, what it indicates is grace precedes salvation just like it says.
The issue being discussed is salvation through faith

regarding your comment

"Your saved by grace THROUGH faith. Not because of"

You were first shown that the word through can mean because of

And you are clearly in error as the verse shows faith must exist if salvation is through faith

The phrase "something is through another" can have different meanings depending on context. Here are a few interpretations:
1. Causal or Instrumental Relationship
📌 Meaning: One thing happens or exists because of another.
• Example: “She succeeded through hard work.” → Her success was made possible by hard work.
• Example: “We booked the trip through a travel agent.” → The travel agent was the intermediary.

Rom 10:9–10

that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.

Clearly, faith is a precondition to salvation.

Acts 16:31

And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”

Mark 16:16

The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 3:16

For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
 
No, what it indicates is grace precedes salvation just like it says.
Salvation by grace through faith suggests that while God's grace is essential for salvation, individuals still have the free will to accept or reject that grace.
Is that what it says? Or do you insert free will where needed?
I do not insert free will as needed. I live free will.

I agree that the Bible teaches that salvation is always and only by grace through faith alone, but differ on how grace and faith are involved in salvation.

You do not agree on the relationship of God's sovereignty and mankind’s free will.

Some have stressed God’s sovereignty and held that only those whom God in his grace has predestined for salvation will be saved by faith; they contend that this salvation cannot be lost. IOW... thosugh they do not say this it is a OSAS mindset.

Other folks have stressed humankind’s free will and generally held that anyone who responds by faith to God’s grace gift of salvation can be saved and this is me. And I believe this salvation can be lost.

I definitely see the Bible setting forth both God’s sovereignty and humankind’s freedom of choice.

And even though you will argue these two truths are irreconcilable I still hold to both and often do so without any effort to reconcile them.

Yesterday was Reformation Sunday and certainly appropriate to read up again on John Knox....

I believe you know of him.... if not your should. John Knox was a very good friend of John Calvin and also a believer in predestination... John Knox also is considered the founder of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland, having played a key role in the Reformation that established the church in the 16th century.

Free Will in Knox's Theology​

Human Will and Divine Sovereignty​

While Knox affirmed the sovereignty of God in predestination, he also acknowledged the existence of human will. He argued that although God's eternal counsel decrees the fate of individuals, humans still possess a free will that operates within God's sovereign plan. This means that while God predestines, individuals are still responsible for their choices.

The Nature of Free Will​

Knox believed that true freedom is found in aligning one's will with God's. He suggested that humans are free to choose good or evil, but their ability to choose good is ultimately enabled by God's grace. Thus, Knox's view of free will does not contradict his belief in predestination; rather, it complements it by highlighting the necessity of divine grace in human decision-making.

John Knox's Views on Free Will​

General Beliefs​

John Knox, held views that emphasized the sovereignty of God while also acknowledging human responsibility. He believed that while God is all-powerful, humans possess the ability to choose between good and evil.

Key Points on Free Will​

  • Human Responsibility: Knox argued that individuals have the freedom to choose their actions. He maintained that God created humans with the capacity to make moral choices, which is essential for genuine faith and repentance.
  • Divine Sovereignty: While affirming free will, Knox also emphasized that God's will ultimately governs all things. He believed that God's providence does not negate human choice but rather works through it.
  • Predestination: Knox's views on predestination suggest that while God has a plan for salvation, individuals still have the opportunity to respond to God's call. He argued that God's mercy is available to all who genuinely seek it.

Conclusion​

Knox's theology presents a balance between divine sovereignty and human free will, asserting that while God is in control, humans are still accountable for their choices. This perspective was significant in shaping Reformed thought during the Reformation.

He also was instrumental in creating the new ecclesiastical order and the Scots Confession of Faith, which defined its beliefs and practices.

But I will stop now for this says what I believe and how I do so.
 
They are drawn by God, The Father or The Son Jn 6: 44; 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

His Power is being exerted.

And the end result is they are drawn unto Christ!
By the word

John 6:45 (LEB) — 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who hears from the Father and learns comes to me.

Faith comes from the word

Romans 10:17 (LEB) — 17 Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing through the word about Christ.

John 20:31 (LEB) — 31 but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

2 Timothy 3:15 (LEB) — 15 and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Acts 11:14 (LEB) — 14 who will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’

Rom 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1 Cor 1:17–18For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to proclaim the gospel, not with clever speech, lest the cross of Christ be emptied. For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
 
Back
Top Bottom