What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[Presby02]

First

You just ignored the point that your theology holds the dead cannot believe and that

They first need to be made alive. This while God states unbelievers will not be made alive.

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

A clear contradiction you have failed to deal with a multiplicity of times.

And still avoid

Why?

Second you have not shown why it is critical whether foreknowledge or collectivism is involved. I have held it irrelevant.

Third you have produced no verses which state the spiritually dead cannot believe.

What man may do

Man may repent

Jeremiah 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me severely, like an untrained calf. Restore me, that I may return, for You are the LORD my God. / After I returned, I repented; and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh in grief. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you.

Draw near to God

James 4:8-10
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. / Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. / Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

return to the Lord

Isa 55:6–7Seek Yahweh while he lets himself be found; call him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Jeremiah 3:12–14 (LEB) — 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt, that against Yahweh your God you have rebelled, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and you have not obeyed my voice,’ declares Yahweh.” 14 “Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.

Choose to serve God

Joshua 24:15–22 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Choose life

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.

Fourth as for Eph 2:5

Ephesians 2:5 (LEB) — 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

you are ignoring two points

Point A

The we from the context are believers-those in Christ.

Point b

The making alive (salvation) follows faith as shown from context

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

And I stand by it. Dead things do not do things.

Nope. Verse 5 precedes verse 2. You do not read it backwards. Well you do but most people read left to right.And its through faith, not because of faith.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Those who are Spiritually void of life.

Nope. Faith us nit even mentioned in 2:5. As I said before, for some reason you feel free to insert words where needed. It says while you were yet dead He made us alive. Othing about faith. Good try though.

Yet... Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Who aeeks Him? Those who are free to make their own decisions, not those who have been chosen whether they want to or not.

 

[civic]

And I stand by it. Dead things do not do things.

Nope. Verse 5 precedes verse 2. You do not read it backwards. Well you do but most people read left to right.And its through faith, not because of faith.

Sure the dead do things read below.

Let’s look at the uses of the term “DEAD” in the scripture for you to decide:

1) Jesus referred to the church in Sardis as “DEAD” and called them to “wake up” (Rev 3). Given Christ’s use of the idiomatic term “DEAD” in reference to this church, should we presume that his hearers cannot respond positively to Christ’s appeal in this passage as well?

2) The Prodigal was “DEAD/lost” then “alive/found” demonstrating that the term “DEAD” is idiomatic for “separated by rebellion” not “innate moral inability” (Luke 15:24).

3) “When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”‭‭ – James‬ ‭1:13-15‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to James? Or is DEATH birthed in those who sin after its “full grown?”

4) “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.”‭‭ – Romans‬ ‭7:7-11‬ ‭

Are we born “DEAD” according to Paul? Or was it through the commandment, after “sin sprang to life” that DEATH came?

5) “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath…And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,” -‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:1-3, 6‬

This passage says nothing about how or when they died, nor does it relate their condition to any type of innate moral inability.

It does say God raised them up with Christ. Is this meant to represent the special inner work of regeneration which effectually causes them to believe after they are raised up? Let’s observe what else Paul says about being raised up in Christ.

“In Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which *you were also raised up with Him through faith* in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions” (Col. 2:11-13).

They were raised up THROUGH FAITH, not unto faith according to Paul.

Calvinists have the burden to produce just one clear biblical example of the term “DEAD” meaning “the moral incapacity to respond willingly to God from birth.” Flowers.


Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)

Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.

Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him

In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.

In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”



Below we see Jesus tell the "spiritually dead " pharisees that they refuse to come to Jesus so that they can have/receive life.

This is the complete opposite of what some religions teach. Jesus lets those dead pharisees know if they come to Jesus they can have life just as John taught in John 1:12-13 and Jesus taught Nicodemus in John 3:16-18. Belief in Him always precedes life. As I have mentioned before this is consistent with Jesus teachings throughout the gospels. He said no less than 13 times that- YOUR FAITH has saved you, healed, you, made you well. Not the faith that He gave them , saved them. It was THEIR OWN FAITH THAT SAVED THEM. When one placed their faith in Him they will be saved, have life, be regenerate, receive eternal life, salvation. Those conditions are taught by all the apostles and writers of the N.T.

John 5
“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?

45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?

hope this helps !!!

 

[Hosanna]

In a theological context, "dead is separated from God" it refers to spiritual death, which is a separation from God due to sin. It is a concept distinct from physical death, which is the separation of the body and soul. According to this view, spiritual death is the state of being without a relationship with God, which, if unaddressed before physical death, can lead to a permanent separation.

 

[FreeInChrist]

Yet... Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Who aeeks Him? Those who are free to make their own decisions, not those who have been chosen whether they want to or not.

And ading to my reply where I was too late to edit....

Who seeks Him? Those who are free to make their own decisions, not those who have been chosen whether they want to or not

And those who hear and listen to people they respect and what they say. Possibly even a parent when they are young and believe what the folks say... before they dont. Or watching films like the Chosen series or even
the movie The Passion of the Christ. Or hearing by accident some televangelist for 5 or 10 minutes and they are pricked to the point of wanting to know more. Or may come to faith in God and Jesus by recognizing their ability to make choices and respond to spiritual truths they see or hear about.

Do you for one minute believe that it was Gods predestination for the Muslims in this world to deny Jesus yet still be saved.
Surly you do not believe that God instilled in them that if they kill the infadels and commit suicide they will get their 70 virgins when they die?

They come to this idea because of seeing and haring the wrong talk from those they respect. And those young men who believe
from their free will are not about to give up those promised virgins.

And do you think that God would have made these people like this only to condemn them?

We you, me, and everyone else on this forum and the others I have belonged to make a huge mistake in not realizing that our beliefs in God, Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not universally accepted.

WE HERE ALL KNOW THE TRUTH... though one reading these threads may wonder about that...

I could fill page after page here about how we come to know... those of us with free will.

But I ask anyone to answer a very simple question.

If there is no free will from before time.... why were the 10 commandments needed? Eh?

But I wont because you already may have stopped reading this.

Blessings

 

[TomL]

And I stand by it. Dead things do not do things.

Nope. Verse 5 precedes verse 2. You do not read it backwards. Well you do but most people read left to right.And its through faith, not because of faith.

How did you actually address what was written

First

You just ignored the point that your theology holds the dead cannot believe and that

They first need to be made alive. This while God states unbelievers will not be made alive.

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

A clear contradiction you have failed to deal with a multiplicity of times.

And still avoid

Why?

Again how have you addressed this?

Second you have not shown why it is critical whether foreknowledge or collectivism is involved. I have held it irrelevant.

No comment addressing this either

Third you have produced no verses which state the spiritually dead cannot believe.

What man may do

Man may repent

Jeremiah 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim’s moaning: ‘You disciplined me severely, like an untrained calf. Restore me, that I may return, for You are the LORD my God. / After I returned, I repented; and after I was instructed, I struck my thigh in grief. I was ashamed and humiliated because I bore the disgrace of my youth.’

Revelation 2:21–22 (LEB) — 21 And I have given her time in order to repent, and she did not want to repent from her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I am throwing her into a sickbed and those who committed adultery with her into great affliction, unless they repent from her deeds.

Luke 11:32 (LEB) — 32 The people of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the proclamation of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here!

Ezekiel 18:30–32 (LEB) — 30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways,” declares the Lord Yahweh. “Repent and turn around from all of your transgression, and it will not be as a stumbling block of iniquity to you.

Draw near to God

James 4:8-10
Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. / Grieve, mourn, and weep. Turn your laughter to mourning, and your joy to gloom. / Humble yourselves before the Lord, and He will exalt you.

return to the Lord

Isa 55:6–7Seek Yahweh while he lets himself be found; call him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, and the man of sin his thoughts. And let him return to Yahweh, that he may take pity on him, and to our God, for he will forgive manifold.

Jeremiah 3:12–14 (LEB) — 12 Go, and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, ‘Return, apostate Israel,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not cause my anger to fall on you. For I am loyal,’ declares Yahweh. ‘I will not be angry forever. 13 Only acknowledge your guilt, that against Yahweh your God you have rebelled, and have scattered your ways to the strangers under every leafy tree, and you have not obeyed my voice,’ declares Yahweh.” 14 “Return, apostate children,” declares Yahweh. “For I am your master, and I will take you one from a city and two from a clan, and I will bring you to Zion.

Choose to serve God

Joshua 24:15–22 (LEB) — 15 But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.” 16 And the people answered and said, “Far be it from us that we would forsake Yahweh to serve other gods, 17 for Yahweh our God brought us and our ancestors from the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery, and did these great signs before our eyes. He protected us along the entire way that we went, and among all the peoples through whose midst we passed. 18 And Yahweh drove out all the people before us, the Amorites who live in the land. We will serve Yahweh, for he is our God.” 19 But Joshua said to the people, “You cannot serve Yahweh, for he is a holy and jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins. 20 If you forsake Yahweh and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster to you; he will destroy you after he has done good to you.” 21 And the people said to Joshua, “No, we will serve Yahweh.” 22 And Joshua said to the people, “You are witnesses against yourselves that you have chosen for yourselves to serve Yahweh.” And they said, “We are witnesses.”

Choose life

Deuteronomy 30:11–20 (LEB) — 11 “For this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too wonderful for you, and it is not too far from you. 12 It is not in the heavens so that you might say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 13 And it is not beyond the sea, so that you might say, ‘Who will cross for us to the other side of the sea and take it for us and cause us to hear it, so that we may do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, even in your mouth and in your heart, so that you may do it. 15 “See, I am setting before you today life and prosperity and death and disaster; 16 what I am commanding you today is to love Yahweh your God by going in his ways and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his regulations, and then you will live, and you will become numerous, and Yahweh your God will bless you in the land where you are going. 17 However, if your heart turns aside and you do not listen and you are lured away and you bow down to other gods and you serve them, 18 I declare to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not extend your time on the land that you are crossing the Jordan to go there to take possession of it. 19 I invoke as a witness against you today the heaven and the earth: life and death I have set before you, blessing and curse. So choose life, so that you may live, you and your offspring, 20 by loving Yahweh your God by listening to his voice and by clinging to him, for he is your life and the length of your days in order for you to live on the land that Yahweh swore to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give to them.”

Isaiah 55:3 (LEB) — 3 Extend your ear, and come to me! Listen so that your soul may live, and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, the enduring proofs of the mercies shown to David.

Not one comment addressing this

Fourth as for Eph 2:5

Ephesians 2:5 (LEB) — 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

you are ignoring two points

Point A

The we from the context are believers-those in Christ.

Point b

The making alive (salvation) follows faith as shown from context

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

to which you state

Verse 5 precedes verse 2. You do not read it backwards. Well you do but most people read left to right.And its through faith, not because of faith.

Verse 5 precedes verse 2?

That was not a comment I made but

Ephesians 2:2 (LEB) — 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, the spirit now working in the sons of disobedience,

Ephesians 2:5 (LEB) — 5 and we being dead in trespasses, he made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved),

I am going to assume you meant verse 8

Ephesians 2:8 (LEB) — 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Now I noted that verse 5 which you quoted, is a reference to the we - those who are in Christ

One becomes in Christ when they believe.

They were made alive which many verses quoted above and not addressed by you state they cannot if they do not believe

You do not address this

regarding your statement

"And its through faith, not because of faith."

If it is through faith, have you not just admitted faith must precede what is given?