What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[TedT]

Belief leads to freedom from condemnation, whereas a lack of belief means a person is already under judgment.

OR: belief means you are not condemned when you sin while a lack of faith means that when you sin you are condemned.

Earthly belief brings you back into Christ is a RETURN to faith:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep (those who accepted the proclamation of the gospel they heard as the truth) that had gone astray, were, at one time, part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

We are RETURNED TO the faith we had before we sinned, a faith that kept us from being condemned when we sinned....

 

[TedT]

Are you unable to understand that God could know some people would believe in Christ and God therefore determines he will choose to make such to be holy and blameless?

PCE theology explains one way this could happen....but rather than our fates being determined by HIM, we believe our fates were our own choice, what we most hoped for would bring our future happiness.

 

[TedT]

Yet Calvinists will argue that God gives life to men condemned already, totally contrary to what the verse states.

Well, HE does sow the people of the evil one into HIS field, mankind, to live with HIS fallen, elect, good seed to help in their repentance unto holiness, Matt 13:27-30.

 

[TomL]

Well, HE does sow the people of the evil one into HIS field, mankind, to live with HIS fallen, elect, good seed to help in their repentance unto holiness, Matt 13:27-30.

God sows the people of the evil one?

My comment concerns the fact that verses exist that state unbelievers do not see life, while Calvinists claim God unconditionally makes some unbelievers alive.

 

[TomL]

PCE theology explains one way this could happen....but rather than our fates being determined by HIM, we believe our fates were our own choice, what we most hoped for would bring our future happiness.

There is no determination of one's choice in the comment

God could know some people would believe in Christ and God therefore determines he will choose to make such to be holy and blameless

What happens is God chooses to bless those who believe.

 

[TomL]

Did He know them or simply some would ,He just had no idea who?

No one said it would.

It could be that he foreknew who would believe or it could be that he just determined to bless those who would as no one is made blameless and holy until the time of belief in Christ.

However as I noted above

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is the critical point.

 

[Presby02]

It could be that he foreknew who would believe or it could be that he just determined to bless those who would as no one is made blameless and holy until the time of belief in Christ.

However as I noted above

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is the critical point.

Except He actually chooses the "us" and the "us" He chose He has determined to bless with holiness and to be blame free. So foreknew cannot be part of the equation. That would violate your rule.

 

[Presby02]

It really does not matter

We could have collectivism or foreknowledge at the beginning of the world

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

It does matter if your going to claim collectivism. Collectivism also wades into Open Theism.

 

[TomL]

It does matter if your going to claim collectivism. Collectivism also wades into Open Theism.

No

Collectivism does not require a belief in open theism

And i simply noted two different possibilities

You however are avoiding the point

God making alive of unbelievers is contrary to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[Presby02]

No

Collectivism does not require a belief in open theism

And i simply noted two different possibilities

You however are avoiding the point

God making alive of unbelievers is contrary to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Great. So God chose those who would make up the collective, the church. His body. Why? To be holy and blameless before Him. Perfect

 

[TomL]

Except He actually chooses the "us" and the "us" He chose He has determined to bless with holiness and to be blame free. So foreknew cannot be part of the equation. That would violate your rule.

Nothing states he cannot make a decision before the foundation of the earth to so bless whoever comes into faith in Christ. He does not make men Holy and blameless while they are unbelievers or non existant

But once again you are ignoring the key point as noted below

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is the critical point: you are avoiding trying to change the subject to one over free will vs collectivism.

 

[Presby02]

Nothing states he cannot make a decision before the foundation of the earth to so bless whoever comes into faith in Christ. He does not make men Holy and blameless while they are unbelievers or non existant

But once again you are ignoring the key point as noted below

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is the critical point: you are avoiding trying to change the subject to one over free will vs collectivism.

There is no whoever. He knows His people and that number is fixed and cannot change. The church is both individual and collective.

No one ever mentioned free will. It seems your fishing for a topic change.

So Christ does not make you alive? A new creation? Your not born again?

 

[TomL]

Except He actually chooses the "us" and the "us" He chose He has determined to bless with holiness and to be blame free. So foreknew cannot be part of the equation. That would violate your rule.

Sorry I made no such rule and noted two possibilities (either foreknowledge or collectivism)

Those who are in Christ he will make holy and blameless before him in love

The decision to do such a thing is pre-creation

The actual act of making a man holy and blameless transpires when they are in Christ not before that.

They become in Christ when they believe in Christ.

 

[TomL]

There is no whoever. He knows His people and that number is fixed and cannot change. The church is both individual and collective.

No one ever mentioned free will. It seems your fishing for a topic change.

So Christ does not make you alive? A new creation? Your not born again?

You are dodging the point again asking the absurd question

So Christ does not make you alive? A new creation? Your not born again?

Which does not happen before creation but when men believe

Nothing states he cannot make a decision before the foundation of the earth to so bless whoever comes into faith in Christ. He does not make men Holy and blameless while they are unbelievers or non existant

But once again you are ignoring the key point as noted below

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

And that is the critical point: you are avoiding trying to change the subject to one over foreknowledge (correction) will vs collectivism.

 

[Presby02]

Sorry I made no such rule and noted two possibilities (either foreknowledge or collectivism)

Those who are in Christ he will make holy and blameless before him in love

The decision to do such a thing is pre-creation

The actual act of making a man holy and blameless transpires when they are in Christ not before that.

They become in Christ when they believe in Christ.

Nope. The choice of the "us" precedes the holy and blameless. It is God who is doing the choosing. And why? The "us" He chose will be holy and blameless. The benefits of being chosen.

 

[TomL]

Nope. The choice of the "us" precedes the holy and blameless. It is God who is doing the choosing. And why? The "us" He chose will be holy and blameless. The benefits of being chosen.

Again the us are those in Christ. Those in Christ are considered holy and blameless

Those not in Christ, those who do not believe, do not see life

Your doctrine of unbelievers being given life is clearly false

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe.

 

[Aeliana]

OR: belief means you are not condemned when you sin while a lack of faith means that when you sin you are condemned.

Earthly belief brings you back into Christ is a RETURN to faith:
1 Peter 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now RETURNED unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
To return, one must have been there before, at least, according to the normal use of the word. Therefore, in this verse, it would be normal to infer that the sheep (those who accepted the proclamation of the gospel they heard as the truth) that had gone astray, were, at one time, part of the Shepherd's flock but had strayed away from HIS care. Since I am sure that the Shepherd was not negligent, the straying away from HIS care must have involved some rebellion.

We are RETURNED TO the faith we had before we sinned, a faith that kept us from being condemned when we sinned....

But the Good Shepherd steps in.

The "good shepherd" is a biblical metaphor used by Jesus in the Gospel of John to describe himself as the protector who lays down his life for his followers. This concept is also found in Psalm 23, where God is portrayed as a shepherd who guides and provides for his people. The core meaning emphasizes a selfless, sacrificial relationship where Jesus knows, guides, and gives eternal life to his followers, who are depicted as sheep.

 

[FreeInChrist]

By predestination I mean that every spirit created in the image of GOD was given a free will choice to accept HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth and thereby become HIS elect OR to reject the proclaimed gospel as the lies of a false god, thereby becoming the reprobate condemned already.

We chose our own FATES by our free will to enter election or reprobation before the foundation of the world but after our choices were made, some of HIS sheep, HIS elect, the people of HIS kingdom, sinned in rebellion to HIM, so we received LIVES in mankind predestined to fulfil our first choice of faith in HIM and HIS gospel, predetermined as the best lives possible to return us to HIM to our first faith in HIM, redeemed and sanctified.

I was quoting Calvin in my statement. And what many churches profess in their Confessions of Faith

As for what you have said here about what you mean about predestination where you say "so we received LIVES in mankind predestined to fulfil our first choice of faith in HIM and HIS gospel, predetermined as the best lives possible to return us to HIM to our first faith in HIM, redeemed and sanctified.

You have mentioned nothing about those who are not going to return to Him. Because not all will "fulfil our first choice of faith in HIM and HIS gospel, " nor would they want to.

 

[Wilber]

Read it again: Whoever believes in Him is not condemned...which can imply that they put their faith in HIM BEFORE they sinned...as PCE theology explains.

WOW, worst logic I've ever seen.

 

[atpollard]

What's Wrong with Calvinism?​

Three things that I can think of:

1. It is undefined, so the term is used to mean different things to different people at different times. “Calvinism” can be used to mean “T.U.L.I.P” or “Doctrines of Grace” to some. It means “Predestination” and “Hard Determinism” to others. It means “Calvin’s Institutes” to a few and the “Westminster Confession of Faith” (WCF) to some. With so vast a range of often contradictory meanings, there really is no “Calvinism” any more than there is one “Christianity” that all believes the same thing.
2. It is misnamed. With the exception of those that equate “Calvinism” with “The Institutes” (written by John Calvin), none of the other common definitions trace back to John Calvin as their source. John Calvin was dead by the time the Synod of Dort created the response to the 5 points of Jacob Arminius that would lead to “T.U.L.I.P.” in the 1930’s.
3. People have such a visceral hatred for the ideas associated with Calvinism (the whole broad range of definitions) that they refuse to see any of the scripture from which most of the ideas were drawn or acknowledge even the possibility that scripture might say anything even remotely resembling what any “Calvinist” claims. The consequence is that there are few honest discussions and a lot of “Yes, but …” tit for tat arguments that usually jump from one hated point/verse to another without ever really digging into any subject beyond the “drive-by scripture pong” level of discussion.

As I see it, THAT is what is wrong with “Calvinism”.