What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[praise_yeshua]

What's Wrong with Calvinism?​

Three things that I can think of:

1. It is undefined, so the term is used to mean different things to different people at different times. “Calvinism” can be used to mean “T.U.L.I.P” or “Doctrines of Grace” to some. It means “Predestination” and “Hard Determinism” to others. It means “Calvin’s Institutes” to a few and the “Westminster Confession of Faith” (WCF) to some. With so vast a range of often contradictory meanings, there really is no “Calvinism” any more than there is one “Christianity” that all believes the same thing.
2. It is misnamed. With the exception of those that equate “Calvinism” with “The Institutes” (written by John Calvin), none of the other common definitions trace back to John Calvin as their source. John Calvin was dead by the time the Synod of Dort created the response to the 5 points of Jacob Arminius that would lead to “T.U.L.I.P.” in the 1930’s.
3. People have such a visceral hatred for the ideas associated with Calvinism (the whole broad range of definitions) that they refuse to see any of the scripture from which most of the ideas were drawn or acknowledge even the possibility that scripture might say anything even remotely resembling what any “Calvinist” claims. The consequence is that there are few honest discussions and a lot of “Yes, but …” tit for tat arguments that usually jump from one hated point/verse to another without ever really digging into any subject beyond the “drive-by scripture pong” level of discussion.

As I see it, THAT is what is wrong with “Calvinism”.

Typical "Calvinist" response.

We all know what is associated with Calvinism. You admit many of those beliefs above. I'm just going to copy and paste from your words...

• “T.U.L.I.P”
• “Doctrines of Grace”
• "Predestination”
• “Hard Determinism”
• “Westminster Confession of Faith”
• Synod of Dort

It is hilariously self serving when a "Calvinist" does this. I mean seriously. I don't know how you can keep a "straight face" claiming

• It is undefined

When you just defined it yourself.

You might not like the definition ( which is rather obvious ) but you're defining it above. Defining something doesn't mean it hasn't changed. Definitions change. You might want to consult several historical dictionaries before making such an argument as this.

 

[civic]

Typical "Calvinist" response.

We all know what is associated with Calvinism. You admit many of those beliefs above. I'm just going to copy and paste from your words...

• “T.U.L.I.P”
• “Doctrines of Grace”
• "Predestination”
• “Hard Determinism”
• “Westminster Confession of Faith”
• Synod of Dort

It is hilariously self serving when a "Calvinist" does this. I means seriously. I don't know how you can keep a "straight face" claiming

• It is undefined

When you just defined it yourself.

You might not like the definition ( which is rather obvious ) but you're defining it above. Defining something doesn't mean it hasn't changed. Definitions change. You might want to consult several historical dictionaries before making such an argument as this.

And lets not forget that Sovereignty is synonymous with Predestination/Hard Determinism. 2 sides of the same coin. .

And by default predestination is the same as double predestination. Thats the only honest conclusion one can draw. By default the non-elect were damned before they were ever created.

 

[Presby02]

Again the us are those in Christ. Those in Christ are considered holy and blameless

Those not in Christ, those who do not believe, do not see life

Your doctrine of unbelievers being given life is clearly false

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe.

Again, the "us" are what is chosen. Why? To be holy and blameless.

Scripture says it is Christ who causes you to be born again. 1 Peter 3:1. Scripture refutes your errant man made religion.

 

[Presby02]

And lets not forget that Sovereignty is synonymous with Predestination/Hard Determinism. 2 sides of the same coin. .

And by default predestination is the same as double predestination. Thats the only honest conclusion one can draw. By default the non-elect were damned before they were ever created.

So God had no idea who would be damned? Why not just embrace Open Theism?

 

[civic]

So God had no idea who would be damned? Why not just embrace Open Theism?

I'm saying what the Reformed believe, not what I believe.

You affirm what I said correct ?

Where do you disagree ?

Where have I misrepresented Calvinism in my post ?

Thanks !

 

[Presby02]

I'm saying what the Reformed believe, not what I believe.

You affirm what I said correct ?

Where do you disagree ?

Where have I misrepresented Calvinism in my post ?

Thanks !

I simply asked a question. If you disagree the damned are born that way then God had no idea. Or He knew and created then anyway. And then claims to want to save them.

 

[civic]

I simply asked a question. If you disagree the damned are born that way then God had no idea. Or He knew and created then anyway. And then claims to want to save them.

I asked a question for once I figured you would answer one of my for a change.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I'm saying what the Reformed believe, not what I believe.

You affirm what I said correct ?

Where do you disagree ?

Where have I misrepresented Calvinism in my post ?

Thanks !

Just wait.... "Reformed" will have no meaning.

 

[Presby02]

I asked a question for once I figured you would answer one of my for a change.

For a change? Now you know how I feel.

 

[civic]

For a change? Now you know how I feel.

I usually answer questions, very seldom do I answer a question with a question.

 

[Presby02]

I usually answer questions, very seldom do I answer a question with a question.

I don't mind it as long its for clarification purposes. And you usually do to your credit.

 

[TedT]

God sows the people of the evil one?

In light of the explanation (not extension) of the metaphor of the parable, Matt 13:36-39, that HE indeed does bring us all together to live together.

WHY?
I surmise that since HE did this rather than having the reprobates live on Mars and the sinful elect live on Venus, that the reprobate must have some value in our sanctification, our repentance and holiness, by our increased understanding of the inevitable full leavening effect that sin has upon others: Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Berean Literal Bible

This would seem to be the stumbling point for the elect, rebelling against the call for the damnation of the reprobate. We see it in the history of the Israelites how judgement was postponed due to the sins of HIS people:
Gen 15:16 . . And they shall return here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.
The question is obviously: “Who was the sin of the Amorites not yet full enough for?” Ps 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You. suggests that any and all sin is full enough for GOD to bring someone to judgement at the moment of sin! Judgement postponed because they hadn't sinned enough for who? Well, the Israelites were not happy to see judgement upon the
Amorites because, well, yes, the Amorites were a little off but not enough to be destroyed utterly!!

Why make the good seed live with and suffer with the evil weeds? The judgement of the weeds is postponed until the seeds are mature in holiness enough for their harvest into the barn. Their acceptance of sin is the reason the judgement has been postponed and the sins of the wicked are part of the impetus to sanctify the elect good seed, the sinful people of His kingdom to make them heaven ready.

Even Job did his part to expose the utter depths of evil in Satan by exposing to the whole world that he would monster the most holy old man just because YHWH liked him!!!

 

[TomL]

In light of the explanation (not extension) of the metaphor of the parable, Matt 13:36-39, that HE indeed does bring us all together to live together.

WHY?
I surmise that since HE did this rather than having the reprobates live on Mars and the sinful elect live on Venus, that the reprobate must have some value in our sanctification, our repentance and holiness, by our increased understanding of the inevitable full leavening effect that sin has upon others: Gal 5:9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Berean Literal Bible

This would seem to be the stumbling point for the elect, rebelling against the call for the damnation of the reprobate. We see it in the history of the Israelites how judgement was postponed due to the sins of HIS people:
Gen 15:16 . . And they shall return here in the fourth generation, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.
The question is obviously: “Who was the sin of the Amorites not yet full enough for?” Ps 5:4 For You are not a God who delights in wickedness; no evil can dwell with You. suggests that any and all sin is full enough for GOD to bring someone to judgement at the moment of sin! Judgement postponed because they hadn't sinned enough for who? Well, the Israelites were not happy to see judgement upon the
Amorites because, well, yes, the Amorites were a little off but not enough to be destroyed utterly!!

Why make the good seed live with and suffer with the evil weeds? The judgement of the weeds is postponed until the seeds are mature in holiness enough for their harvest into the barn. Their acceptance of sin is the reason the judgement has been postponed and the sins of the wicked are part of the impetus to sanctify the elect good seed, the sinful people of His kingdom to make them heaven ready.

Even Job did his part to expose the utter depths of evil in Satan by exposing to the whole world that he would monster the most holy old man just because YHWH liked him!!!

Oh another out of this world view

As for Mat 13:27-30

Matthew 13:27–29 (NASB95) — 27 “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 “But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.

key for the non separation is

But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.

 

[TomL]

Again, the "us" are what is chosen. Why? To be holy and blameless.

Scripture says it is Christ who causes you to be born again. 1 Peter 3:1. Scripture refutes your errant man made religion.

Again you do not deal with the fact

Your doctrine of unbelievers being given life is clearly false

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

Scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe.

That you cannot deal with, and so you call the very word of God "errant" and "man-made."

 

[TedT]

God could know some people would believe in Christ and God therefore determines he will choose to make such to be holy and blameless

But is not our salvation a gift of GOD by faith? Are we not all equal in evil in HIS sight? When HE looks ahead to our redemption does HE not already know who will be redeemed because HE knows to whom HE will give the gift of faith? So why does HE restrict HIS gift to only some when without the work of the Holy Spirit, no one would accept HIS gift at all??

AND: if HIS foreknowledge included who would chose to accept HIS offer of salvation then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell??? HE wants no one to perish, 2 Peter 3:0 and prefers that everyone turn from his ways and live, Ez 18:23 showing that HE wants an empty hell so why create those HE know will end there???

 

[TomL]

But is not our salvation a gift of GOD by faith? Are we not all equal in evil in HIS sight? When HE looks ahead to our redemption does HE not already know who will be redeemed because HE knows to whom HE will give the gift of faith? So why does HE restrict HIS gift to only some when without the work of the Holy Spirit, no one would accept HIS gift at all??

AND: if HIS foreknowledge included who would chose to accept HIS offer of salvation then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell??? HE wants no one to perish, 2 Peter 3:0 and prefers that everyone turn from his ways and live, Ez 18:23 showing that HE wants an empty hell so why create those HE know will end there???

Salvation is indeed a gift. Faith on the otherhand is not an irresistible gift.
The Spirit is given to those with faith

regarding your statement

"AND: if HIS foreknowledge included who would chose to accept HIS offer of salvation then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell???""

Why would you ask "then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell???"

 

[TedT]

The decision to do such a thing is pre-creation

...which implies that not everyone being saved is just plain wrong! The GOD who is lovingly righteous and just has no reason to create a system for the creation of people to be HIS bride under these awful conditions. <head shake, facepalm>

 

[TedT]

But the Good Shepherd steps in.

Still a return so when were you in and when did you go astray so you could return?

 

[civic]

Salvation is indeed a gift. Faith on the otherhand is not an irresistible gift.
The Spirit is given to those with faith

regarding your statement

"AND: if HIS foreknowledge included who would chose to accept HIS offer of salvation then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell???""

Why would you ask "then why did HE just not create those HE knew would end in thell???"

Ditto

 

[TedT]

what you mean about predestination

Predestination is HIS promise based upon HIS knowledge of what HE wants to do for the people HE has created in HIS image able to be a proper Bride for HIM in RESPONSE TO or ACCORDING TO their free will response to HIS declaration of HIS divinity and the gospel, Col 1:23.