What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[Presby02]

Not necessarily, as it could be collective. That would be another issue.

The point remains it is those in Christ who were chosen to be holy and blameless before God in love .

Not unconditionally selected dead men.

No, necessarily. Foreknowledge does not mean determinism remember?

The point remains, it does not say THOSE in Christ.

How can they be deaf men if they had yet to exist?

 

[TedT]

We all are able respond in faith to the gospel of grace. At all times not just sometimes. It's called Salvation, that's what I'm talking about. Hate to burst your bubble but it's not just for a few elect, but for ALL mankind. Whosoever will come to Jesus.

Then how were some sinners condemned already, Jn 3:18 while other sinners are not, ie, have never been, condemned.

 

[TomL]

No, necessarily. Foreknowledge does not mean determinism remember?

So what?

Did you not understand what was stated

Not necessarily, as it could be collective. That would be another issue.

Collectivism was listed as the other option

The point remains, it does not say THOSE in Christ.

How can they be deaf men if they had yet to exist?

You are ignoring the point

The us are identified as those in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (LEB) — 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Deaf men?

I did not speak of deaf men

The Calvinist view speaks of God selecting dead men unconditionally.

 

[Wilber]

Then how were some sinners condemned already, Jn 3:18 while other sinners are not, ie, have never been, condemned.

All sinners are condemned. Some come to Jesus and He removes their condemnation. Sets them free from sin and death. They are clean, clean from the inside out, Salvation what I'm talking about.

Belief leads to freedom from condemnation, whereas a lack of belief means a person is already under judgment.

• For believers: "He who believes in Him is not condemned".
  
  
• For non-believers: "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

 

[Presby02]

So what?

Did you not understand what was stated

Not necessarily, as it could be collective. That would be another issue.

Collectivism was listed as the other option



You are ignoring the point

The us are identified as those in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (LEB) — 3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,

Deaf men?

I did not speak of deaf men

The Calvinist view speaks of God selecting dead men unconditionally.

Collectivsm? How so?

It says they choosen in Christ. Your missing the point. It does not say THOSE in Christ.

There not dead if they never existed. LOL

 

[TedT]

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends,

By predestination I mean that every spirit created in the image of GOD was given a free will choice to accept HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth and thereby become HIS elect OR to reject the proclaimed gospel as the lies of a false god, thereby becoming the reprobate condemned already.

We chose our own FATES by our free will to enter election or reprobation before the foundation of the world but after our choices were made, some of HIS sheep, HIS elect, the people of HIS kingdom, sinned in rebellion to HIM, so we received LIVES in mankind predestined to fulfil our first choice of faith in HIM and HIS gospel, predetermined as the best lives possible to return us to HIM to our first faith in HIM, redeemed and sanctified.

 

[TomL]

Collectivsm? How so?

It says they choosen in Christ. Your missing the point. It does not say THOSE in Christ.

There not dead if they never existed. LOL

You just ignored the point

The us was identified as those in Christ.

PS you have God selecting those men who you say never existed

 

[Presby02]

You just ignored the point

The us was identified as those in Christ.

PS you have God selecting those men who you say never existed

It does not say "those". Besides, I thought you were not in Christ until you believed?

God knows THEY WILL exist at their appointed time.

 

[TedT]

If Calvin said it.... can it be wrong? Those preordained to damnation simply have no choice in the matter.

Arrrrghhhh...

 

[TedT]

So you existed at the foundation of the world? Your old

...not so much smarter yet, though,sigh.

 

[TomL]

It does not say "those". Besides, I thought you were not in Christ until you believed?

God knows THEY WILL exist at their appointed time.

Are you unable to understand that God could know some people would believe in Christ and God therefore determines he will choose to make such to be holy and blameless?

The holy and blamelessness, however, will not happen before the foundation of the earth.

 

[TomL]

All sinners are condemned. Some come to Jesus and He removes their condemnation. Sets them free from sin and death. They are clean, clean from the inside out, Salvation what I'm talking about.

Belief leads to freedom from condemnation, whereas a lack of belief means a person is already under judgment.

• For believers: "He who believes in Him is not condemned".
  
  
• For non-believers: "but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

Yet Calvinists will argue that God gives life to men condemned already, totally contrary to what the verse states.

 

[TedT]

You did not believe at the foundation of the world.

IF the Satanic bypassed election by their free will for an unsupported belief in freedom from GOD's holiness thus becoming the reprobate condemned already, then why cannot others have chosen to put their faith in HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth, becoming HIS elect?

Why is it so easy to believe Satan et al only fell into condemnation by their free will but not that we also become elect before the foundation of the world by our free will?

 

[TedT]

Especially when your theology has God picking out certain men before any exist.

PCE theology contends that we all existed before the foundation of the world (which we witnessed, Job 38:7) and heard HIS proclamation of the gospel at that time and HE picked for election those who accepted HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth and HE condemned those who rebuked HIS proclamation of the gospel as the lies of a false god to hell, on the spot.

 

[Wilber]

My favorite non-Calvinist quote!

"The glory of the justice that condemns the sinner is not as great as the glory of the justice of the grace of God that saves the lost ... He is not so short of glory that He must needs seek it in hell, death, and damnation. A high Calvinist once said, 'the groans of the damned in hell shall be the great bass of the universal anthem of praise to God'. Such horror of hell can surely never sound other than horrible in the ear of Divine love. ...

"In this matter of Divine Sovereignty in election we are not dealing with personified and inflated will, abstract justice, power without love, and glory without moral content, but with the personal God whose grace is glory and whose glory is grace to sinful persons needing redemption. Instead of disjointed attributes, arbitrary powers, and death-dealing decrees, let us have the living, loving personal God revealed so perfectly in Jesus Christ!"

J.B. Champion -- in his book Sovereignty and Grace.

Calvinism’s view of unconditional election raises serious questions about God’s justice, mercy, and love toward fallen people who have no say over the eternal outcome of heaven or hell. If Calvinism is correct, then His elect will be saved and spend eternity forever in heaven, because God wills it, and the non-elect will be damned forever to suffer in the lake of fire, because God has foreordained it. Any rational thinking person will naturally ask: How is that just? How is that love?

 

[Presby02]

IF the Satanic bypassed election by their free will for an unsupported belief in freedom from GOD's holiness thus becoming the reprobate condemned already, then why cannot others have chosen to put their faith in HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth, becoming HIS elect?

Why is it so easy to believe Satan et al only fell into condemnation by their free will but not that we also become elect before the foundation of the world by our free will?

What are you talking about?

 

[TedT]

All sinners are condemned.

Read it again: Whoever believes in Him is not condemned...which can imply that they put their faith in HIM BEFORE they sinned...as PCE theology explains.

 

[Presby02]

Are you unable to understand that God could know some people would believe in Christ and God therefore determines he will choose to make such to be holy and blameless?

The holy and blamelessness, however, will not happen before the foundation of the earth.

Did He know them or simply some would ,He just had no idea who?

No one said it would.

 

[TomL]

PCE theology contends that we all existed before the foundation of the world (which we witnessed, Job 38:7) and heard HIS proclamation of the gospel at that time and HE picked for election those who accepted HIS proclamation of the gospel as the truth and HE condemned those who rebuked HIS proclamation of the gospel as the lies of a false god to hell, on the spot.

I am sure you will recall I do not believe in PCE or that Job 38:7 teaches such

 

[TomL]

Did He know them or simply some would ,He just had no idea who?

No one said it would.

It really does not matter

We could have collectivism or foreknowledge at the beginning of the world

There is, however, no way dead men who do not believe can be given life, as Calvinism holds, without a contradiction to scripture

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.