What's Wrong with Calvinism?
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civic
Active Member
those who are saved under the same umbrella have no choice. they cannot refuse to be saved. God makes them believe, after God forces His spirit in the dead corpse.
I use to believe and teach this stuff for decades.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
One additional thing about John Calvin.....
“Reason would tell us that baptism is rightly administered to babies. The Lord did not give circumcision long ago without making them (infants) partakers of everything represented by circumcision. He would have been deceiving his people with a sham, if he had reassured them with false signs. The idea is very shocking. He distinctly states that the circumcision of the infant is the seal of covenant promise. If the covenant remains firm and unmoved, this is just as relevant to the children of Christians today as it was to the children of the Jews under the Old Testament…The truth of baptism applies to infants, so why do we deny them the sign? The Lord himself formally admitted infants to his covenant, so what more do we need?”
So if he was wrong about that... why would he be right about predestination the way he taught it?
John Calvin, Institutes of the christian religion, 4:16:5 (Beveridge Edition)
I bet you wont find many on here that are a Calvinist or predestined believer who believes in baby baptism... but Calvin did.
Theophilus
Administrator
My old stand by is "Where is the love in Calvinism?"
Calvinism is not the correct way to show God's love to the lost. Calvinists think of unregenerate people as cadavers. That is, they see them as totally unable to respond to God in a saving way—or in any way.
They often cite Rom 3:11 which says, “There is none who seeks after God.” Yet we know from many texts that what Paul means is that no one seeks after God of his own initiative. But God does take the initiative (John 12:32; 16:7-11; Acts 17:27), gives natural revelation to all (Rom 1:19-20), and convicts all of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:7-11).
Cornelius is exhibit A (though there are many examples like him in Scripture). He sought God before he was born again because God was first seeking him. If our theology does not allow for the unregenerate to respond to God, then we ought to change our theology.
Theophilus
Administrator
My favorite non-Calvinist quote!
"The glory of the justice that condemns the sinner is not as great as the glory of the justice of the grace of God that saves the lost ... He is not so short of glory that He must needs seek it in hell, death, and damnation. A high Calvinist once said, 'the groans of the damned in hell shall be the great bass of the universal anthem of praise to God'. Such horror of hell can surely never sound other than horrible in the ear of Divine love. ...
"In this matter of Divine Sovereignty in election we are not dealing with personified and inflated will, abstract justice, power without love, and glory without moral content, but with the personal God whose grace is glory and whose glory is grace to sinful persons needing redemption. Instead of disjointed attributes, arbitrary powers, and death-dealing decrees, let us have the living, loving personal God revealed so perfectly in Jesus Christ!"
J.B. Champion -- in his book Sovereignty and Grace.
"The glory of the justice that condemns the sinner is not as great as the glory of the justice of the grace of God that saves the lost ... He is not so short of glory that He must needs seek it in hell, death, and damnation. A high Calvinist once said, 'the groans of the damned in hell shall be the great bass of the universal anthem of praise to God'. Such horror of hell can surely never sound other than horrible in the ear of Divine love. ...
"In this matter of Divine Sovereignty in election we are not dealing with personified and inflated will, abstract justice, power without love, and glory without moral content, but with the personal God whose grace is glory and whose glory is grace to sinful persons needing redemption. Instead of disjointed attributes, arbitrary powers, and death-dealing decrees, let us have the living, loving personal God revealed so perfectly in Jesus Christ!"
J.B. Champion -- in his book Sovereignty and Grace.
It does teach those in Christ were chosen to be holy and blameless.
As well as all this, which you do not address
And again, believers are chosen to be forgiven, declared righteous, and saved—that is, to have life
John 3:16
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Eph 2:8–9
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
Rom 10:9–10
that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”
Mark 16:16
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Rom 3:22–24
that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Gal 2:16
but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
John 11:25–26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”
2 Thess 2:13
But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,
Acts 13:39
by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Rom 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,
1 Cor 15:1–2
Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.
Eph 1:13–14
in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
2 Tim 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
John 20:31
but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 13:38–39
“Therefore let it be known to you, men and brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Acts 10:43
To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:23–25
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
and after reading, adopt a theology that is consistent with the scriptures posted.
So what. What it does not say is you were chosen because you are in Christ. Which of course you were not at the foundation of the world. Also, the only choice mentionrd in the text is made by God.
JOB:4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who fixed its measurements? Surely you know!
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its foundations set,
or who laid its cornerstone,
7 while the morning stars sang together and ALL THE SONS OF GOD shouted for joy?
So you existed at the foundation of the world? Your old
Wilber
Active Member
Calvinism’s view of total depravity is questionable. Their view is that total depravity means total inability. Despite the profound impact of sin on human nature, the Bible does not portray people as entirely incapacitated. Yes, all mankind is “dead” in their sins (Eph 2:1); but death does not mean total inability, but total separation from God, for even those who were dead still “walked according to the course of this world” (Eph 2:2). Mankind is totally depraved in the sense that sin corrupts every part of our being, intellect, will, and sensibility. However, it does not mean that fallen people are unable to respond in faith to the gospel of grace.
Wilber
Active Member
The first example of spiritual death in the Bible is found in the Garden of Eden. God had warned Adam and Eve, saying, “from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die” (Gen 2:17). The warning was that if they disobeyed God, on that very day, they would die. Adam and Eve experienced spiritual death at the moment they disobeyed God.
Yet, immediately after the fall, in their state of spiritual death (and death means separation, not cessation), they could sense God’s presence in the Garden, as they “heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden” (Gen 3:8). Furthermore, Adam heard God’s voice when He “called to the man” (Gen 3:9), and Adam responded to Him, saying, “I heard the sound of You in the garden” (Gen 3:10a).
Though they could not undo their newly fallen sinful state, it did not render them totally unable to perceive God or to respond to Him when He called out to them. And they did respond positively to the Lord when He promised to provide a descendant, a Seed of the woman, who would crush the head of the serpent (Gen 3:15). They also responded positively by accepting God’s provision of clothing after He killed an animal, took its skin, and covered their nakedness (Gen 3:21).
redeeminggod.com
Yet, immediately after the fall, in their state of spiritual death (and death means separation, not cessation), they could sense God’s presence in the Garden, as they “heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden” (Gen 3:8). Furthermore, Adam heard God’s voice when He “called to the man” (Gen 3:9), and Adam responded to Him, saying, “I heard the sound of You in the garden” (Gen 3:10a).
Though they could not undo their newly fallen sinful state, it did not render them totally unable to perceive God or to respond to Him when He called out to them. And they did respond positively to the Lord when He promised to provide a descendant, a Seed of the woman, who would crush the head of the serpent (Gen 3:15). They also responded positively by accepting God’s provision of clothing after He killed an animal, took its skin, and covered their nakedness (Gen 3:21).
redeeminggod.com
It does say God chose the us (those in Christ) to be holy and blameless
And we do see
It does teach those who believe in Christ are forgiven, declared righteous and saved - .that is, to have life
John 3:16
For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life.
Eph 2:8–9
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast.
Rom 10:9–10
that if you confess with your mouth “Jesus is Lord” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses, resulting in salvation.
Acts 16:31
And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household!”
Mark 16:16
The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:24
Truly, truly I say to you that the one who hears my word and who believes the one who sent me has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
Rom 3:22–24
that is, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
Gal 2:16
but knowing that a person is not justified by the works of the law, if not by faith in Jesus Christ, and we have believed in Christ Jesus so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no human being will be justified.
John 11:25–26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die forever. Do you believe this?”
2 Thess 2:13
But we ought to give thanks to God always concerning you, brothers dearly loved by the Lord, because God has chosen you as first fruits for salvation by the sanctification of the Spirit and faith in the truth,
Acts 13:39
by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Rom 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but who believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited for righteousness,
1 Cor 15:1–2
Now I make known to you, brothers, the gospel which I proclaimed to you, which you have also received, in which you also stand, by which you are also being saved, if you hold fast to the message I proclaimed to you, unless you believed to no purpose.
Eph 1:13–14
in whom also you, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also when you believed you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the down payment of our inheritance, until the redemption of the possession, to the praise of his glory.
2 Tim 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the holy writings that are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
John 20:31
but these things are recorded in order that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 13:38–39
“Therefore let it be known to you, men and brothers, that through this one forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and from all the things from which you were not able to be justified by the law of Moses, 39 by this one everyone who believes is justified!
Acts 10:43
To this one all the prophets testify, that through his name everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 26:18
to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a share among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
Romans 3:23–25
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by his grace, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins,
and those who do not believe are not made alive
John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 (LEB) — 8 with burning flame giving punishment to those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus,
John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.
Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.
John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”
1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
So your theology affirming the making alive of some unbelievers is false.
1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
Then a sinner's enslavement to sin is a fallacy, only sort of coercing us sometimes, maybe...?
True
Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Wilber
Active Member
We all are able respond in faith to the gospel of grace. At all times not just sometimes. It's called Salvation, that's what I'm talking about. Hate to burst your bubble but it's not just for a few elect, but for ALL mankind. Whosoever will come to Jesus.
Yes it certainly can be wrong, as the bible does not teach such an unconditional election
And teaches unbelief cannot result in life
It does not say THOSE in Christ does it? Which is impossiblle according to you. You did not believe at the foundation of the world.
Are you going to argue God could not know there would be men in Christ
Especially when your theology has God picking out certain men before any exist.
PS: It is not impossible, according to me, that God would know there would be men who would be in Christ.
And in fact it is the us (the those who would be in Christ) who are chosen to be holy and blameless.
Oh so who He determined would be saved is based upon His foreknowledge?
They are chosen to be holy blameless. The us is what is chosen not the holy and blameless. Ser where it says He chose "us"?
Not necessarily, as it could be collective. That would be another issue.
The point remains it is those in Christ who were chosen to be holy and blameless before God in love .
Not unconditionally selected dead men.
