What's Wrong with Calvinism?

[TedT]

Am I supposed to explain why God planned as he did?

Then listen:
HE created us to be HIS Bride by our free will acceptance to HIS marriage proposal. Everything follows from that and if an interpretation of scripture denies it, it is wrong.

Everyone was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in HIM and become chosen by HIM to be redeemed in Christ if they should ever go astray OR to rebuke HIM as a liar and become HIS eternal enemies, fit only to be damned.

HE promised those who would accept HIM as their GOD and saviour from sin would be chosen to be HIS Bride in Christ and would never be condemned but redeemed and sanctified if they should ever sin.

All sinfulness, all separation from HIM is due only to THE SINNER'S choice to rebel against HIM and is not due to any desire or choice of HIS to put us into a sinful state nor to chose by HIS will to reject someone who is able to choose to be HIS bride from becoming HIS bride by HIS rejection of them before they make their choice about HIS marriage proposal.

Anything less is a denigration of HIS loving righteousness and HIS justice.

 

[TomL]

Then listen:
HE created us to be HIS Bride by our free will acceptance to HIS marriage proposal. Everything follows from that and if an interpretation of scripture denies it, it is wrong.

Everyone was created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to chose to put their faith in HIM and become chosen by HIM to be redeemed in Christ if they should ever go astray OR to rebuke HIM as a liar and become HIS eternal enemies, fit only to be damned.

HE promised those who would accept HIM as their GOD and saviour from sin would be chosen to be HIS Bride in Christ and would never be condemned but redeemed and sanctified if they should ever sin.

All sinfulness, all separation from HIM is due only to THE SINNER'S choice to rebel against HIM and is not due to any desire or choice of HIS to put us into a sinful state nor to chose by HIS will to reject someone who is able to choose to be HIS bride from becoming HIS bride by HIS rejection of them before they make their choice about HIS marriage proposal.

Anything less is a denigration of HIS loving righteousness and HIS justice.

So that differs from

No, he chose that those who would be in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in love

He did not choose who would be in Christ.

Christ is the elect, so also are those in him.

Believing in Christ places you in him.

How???

 

[brightfame52]

Believing in Christ places you in him.

False The Father chose people in Christ before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4

It's a work of God 1 Corinthians 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[TomL]

False The Father chose people in Christ before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4

It's a work of God 1 Corinthians 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Sorry, but you are far off.

2 Corinthians 5:17 (LEB) — 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

You are not a new creation not even having been created or born

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, but you are far off.

No it's true and I agree with your scripture reference. The elect are in Christ representatively B4 the foundation and B4 their sin in Adam

 

[TomL]

No it's true and I agree with your scripture reference. The elect are in Christ representatively B4 the foundation and B4 their sin in Adam

2 Corinthians 5:17 (LEB) — 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

You are not a new creation not even having been created or born and not in Christ

Until you come to faith, you are not in Christ.

 

[TedT]

Believing in Christ places you in him.

How???

By the promise of GOD when He promised election to salvation for any who chose to become HIS elect who ever went astray into sin...

Believing in HIM means to have faith in HIM...the fact that
theologians use belief and faith as the same word is dismaying when in English belief refers to things that you believe have been proven, while FAITH refers to an unproven hope, HEB 11:1 and proof destroys faith by reducing it to mere belief...Romans 8:24.

IF salvation is by faith, not proof (ie, not belief), now that YHWH has given everyone absolute proof (unto belief) of HIS deity and eternal power, Rom 1:20, how can they have faith when faith is an unproven hope, Heb 11:1 and in Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?

We are IN Christ when we have faith in Him as our GOD and saviour. We went astray from HIM when we rebelled against HIS call for us to separate from the Satanic when YHWH called for their damnation... an act that forced the postponement of their judgement as per Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘ An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. This is also represented to us in history in the story of the Amorites who also escaped their own destruction due to the Israelites refusal to condemn them as fully evil...

Do we all agree that the wheat can only be pulled up if they are sinful? This implies that there are indeed two types of sinners, those in Christ who are never condemned and those who were never in Christ and so are condemned already...Jn 3:18. Being in Christ precedes both the fall of Satan and some of HIS sheep (elect) going astray into sin.

 

[brightfame52]

2 Corinthians 5:17 (LEB) — 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

You are not a new creation not even having been created or born and not in Christ

Until you come to faith, you are not in Christ.

The elect are in Christ representatively B4 the foundation and B4 their sin in Adam

 

[TomL]

The elect are in Christ representatively B4 the foundation and B4 their sin in Adam

Sorry, that is not scripture and does not even make sense. What happens at their sin in Adam?

In Christ

The concept of being "in Christ" is central to Christian identity, emphasizing a deep theological and relational connection with Jesus. This phrase, used frequently by Paul, signifies that believers participate in Christ's life, death, and resurrection through faith. Being in Christ involves several dimensions: it is soteriological, meaning believers are saved and transformed; ecclesiological, as they become part of the church; and missiological, as they engage in Christ's mission using spiritual gifts. Additionally, it is participatory, involving shared suffering and hope, and eschatological, promising eternal life and restoration. The experience of being in Christ is also pneumatological, as believers receive the Holy Spirit, which empowers them to live ethically and bear spiritual fruit. Ultimately, being "in Christ" invites individuals into a transformative journey of faith, characterized by growth, community, and a deepening relationship with God. This journey begins with a simple act of acceptance—saying "yes" to Christ's invitation.

Discovering the New Testament: An Introduction to Its Background, Theology, and Themes, Volume II: The Pauline Letters, p 413

 

[TomL]

By the promise of GOD when He promised election to salvation for any who chose to become HIS elect who ever went astray into sin...

Believing in HIM means to have faith in HIM...the fact that
theologians use belief and faith as the same word is dismaying when in English belief refers to things that you believe have been proven, while FAITH refers to an unproven hope, HEB 11:1 and proof destroys faith by reducing it to mere belief...Romans 8:24.

IF salvation is by faith, not proof (ie, not belief), now that YHWH has given everyone absolute proof (unto belief) of HIS deity and eternal power, Rom 1:20, how can they have faith when faith is an unproven hope, Heb 11:1 and in Romans 8:24 For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see?

We are IN Christ when we have faith in Him as our GOD and saviour. We went astray from HIM when we rebelled against HIS call for us to separate from the Satanic when YHWH called for their damnation... an act that forced the postponement of their judgement as per Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28‘ An enemy did this,’ he replied. So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29 ‘No,’ he said, ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. This is also represented to us in history in the story of the Amorites who also escaped their own destruction due to the Israelites refusal to condemn them as fully evil...

Do we all agree that the wheat can only be pulled up if they are sinful? This implies that there are indeed two types of sinners, those in Christ who are never condemned and those who were never in Christ and so are condemned already...Jn 3:18. Being in Christ precedes both the fall of Satan and some of HIS sheep (elect) going astray into sin.

You have misunderstood what was being stated

The question was how is what you posted different from this

So that differs from

No, he chose that those who would be in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in love

He did not choose who would be in Christ.

Christ is the elect, so also are those in him.

Believing in Christ places you in him.

Not a question of how believing in Christ places you in him.

You should see that if you read carefully, but I could have made it more obvious.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry, that is not scripture and does not even make sense. What happens at their sin in Adam?

Again the elect were in Christ representatively B4 Adam was created. Christ was there representative head before Adam was. The elect in time did sin in Adam but that didn't change their status in Christ, in fact that is why Christ came in the flesh to redeem the elect from their sin in Adam.

 

[TomL]

Again the elect were in Christ representatively B4 Adam was created. Christ was there representative head before Adam was. The elect in time did sin in Adam but that didn't change their status in Christ, in fact that is why Christ came in the flesh to redeem the elect from their sin in Adam.

They did not exist then. They did not believe then. They therefore were not in Christ then.

Gal 3:26–27For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
2 Cor 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

None of that is possibly true before the creation of the earth

 

[brightfame52]

They did not exist then

They did in the mind and purpose of God. They were forknown

 

[TomL]

They did in the mind and purpose of God. They were forknown

You miss the point

They did not exist then. They did not believe then. They therefore were not in Christ then.

Gal 3:26–27For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
2 Cor 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

None of that is possibly true before the creation of the earth

 

[brightfame52]

You miss the point

No you don't get it. In the Mind and Purpose of God people exist 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, The us are individual people, like Paul, Timothy etc.

 

[TomL]

No you don't get it. In the Mind and Purpose of God people exist 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, The us are individual people, like Paul, Timothy etc.

Sorry but They did not exist then. They did not believe then. They therefore were not in Christ then.

Gal 3:26–27For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
2 Cor 5:17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come.

None of that is possibly true before the creation of the earth

 

[Presby02]

Not chosen to be in Christ,

God before the foundation of the earth determined those in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in love

"Chose us in Him". Thats what it says. Not "those on Christ".

 

[Presby02]

To you, perhaps, and then perhaps you should have done more thinking.

To everyone who had English in the 6th grade.

 

[Presby02]

No, God did not choose them to be in Christ.

He did choose that those in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in love.

He did this before the foundation of the earth.

No, God did not choose them to be in Christ.

He did choose that those in Christ would be holy and blameless before him in love.

He did this before the foundation of the earth.

There is no "those in Christ" in the text.

 

[TomL]

There is no "those in Christ" in the text.

Try reading the text as the concept of being in Christ is seen multiple times

Ephesians 1:1–13 (NASB95) — 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,