@Bob Carabbio @Titus
I read your discussion lighting on "faith", and I think both of you have it wrong on two points.
The first point is that there is no requirement of "faith" in the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, New.)
The second point is that no men have the faith God required for salvation.
From my understanding of Ephesians 2:1-2 that men are dead in trespasses and sin, like Lazarus in the grave dead as a door nail how can a dead man exhibit anything by lie dormant until the call to "come forth" is given by God?
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:1–2.
This, of course, is not physical death, but a spiritual death that affects all men. Sure, we can say unequivocally Noah had faith or trust in the God who instructed him in the building of an ark to save himself and rescue seven other people. This saving was not spiritual salvation but a physical deliverance from physical harm. People like Noah were already in a spiritually saved condition being "kept" until the One in which true spiritual Faith would "appear" that would fulfill the Lord's requirement of faith by which salvation would be realized. We know God is the only true faithful Person in existence. From the Scripture, and in personal experience, we know God has kept every promise He's made to the people He's made promise to, and He does so in His own time according to His perfect plan for the people who are recipients of His promises.
So, if God is the only Person who is faith-ful and the rest of life is faith-less - and this is seen over and again in Scripture among His covenant people the Hebrews of Abraham's seed - why does God find it necessary for faith to appear? And I am referring to this passage:
22 But the scripture hath concluded
all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ
might be given to them that believe. Gal 3:22.
Interesting that faith will be given to a people who already "believe." But I see a distinction between the faith that will be given and the recipients who "believe" it
will be given to them. Is this "belief" of the people that
believe, is this the faith necessary for salvation or is it merely mental assent that in some way and form something greater is on the horizon that has not yet "appeared" which is why that something promised to appear is the vehicle by which spiritual salvation can occur above and beyond the less able "belief" people have towards the true, different faith that has an advent in its future that will complete and change everything? We have the "appearing" of faith finally coming not to men but possessed of God with the faith to make happen and realize the purpose for which this faith is necessary so that the playing field is changed and affected by this faith that will appear. We have this revelation:
23 But
before faith came,
we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal. 3:23.
If men's faith was sufficient why would there be a need for another faith to come and be revealed, and when and why did this happen? What did it accomplish? I think it was revealed in the Person of Christ and given to those first which were "kept" and [shut up] under the Law and limited to and by the Law. Surely, non-Hebrew Gentiles didn't have any faith to speak of because faith we find in Saul's letter is a gift of God given to those to whom it was promised, that is, to those in covenant with God, vis a vis, the Hebrew people.
If another faith should be revealed, then who possessed this faith which would accomplish what seems to be an opening of those under the Law to bring them out of the Law into salvation. Anything men possess towards God is weak and feeble and could not accomplish what faith and trust was required of God He deemed necessary to accomplish that to which He would be satisfied.
Jesus was a man. Jesus was under the Law. Jesus obeyed and observed as a Hebrew man everything required under the Law as a perfect man and this perfection was among other requirements of God to do the thing to which it was assigned, and that is the faith that is strong, unwavering, unyielding, and complete that went to His ability to save those needing saving. This perfect faith [trust] is what God used to be the basis of saving His people since under the Law God required obedience, not faith from those under the Law, when He made this covenant through Moses with the children of Israel who were the children and seed of Abraham.
5 Now therefore, if ye will
obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.
These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19:4–6.
But the children of Israel did not have the perfect faith that God would be satisfied with as they constantly offended in one which was an offending in all (the Law.) They stumbled individually as they stumbled nationally. This situation required rectifying by God, and this was done in and through the Son. And Jesus bar Joseph as a man under the Law and under the same requirement of God to obedience and of "obeying
my voice" and keeping His covenant once accomplished would be a "peculiar treasure to God
above all people and a kingly priest and a holy nation (person.)
In hindsight and from Scripture we know Jesus bar Joseph accomplished these requirements and became that treasure unto God. So, what now? Is that all Jesus' faith was for? Only a personal appliance to God or would God have some other use for the faithless, feeble and weak man in His covenant? That answer is found in what was later to be "revealed" and "to come" and "appear."
23 But
before faith came,
we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal. 3:23.
And revealed it was. He gifted His faith which could move mountains such as the mountain of debt and sin that stole, killed, and destroyed God's people. It was gifted beginning here in Jerusalem on the day of the Feast of Harvest (Pentecost.)
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:16–21.
What is the difference between men who called upon the Name of the Lord before this event and the promise that now those that call upon the Name of the Lord shall now be saved? It is because the perfect faith possessed by Jesus of Nazareth was acceptable to God and He is now utilizing in His plan to save His people. Dead men have no faith because they are dead along with their faithlessness in trespasses and sin. But one did have the faith that was obedient, and the which God used to gift to others so that they might be saved. This faith that appeared when the Holy Spirit appeared change the dynamics of the salvation plan. If anyone is to be saved they will be saved through the faith of the Son, as Saul said:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but
by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,
that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:
for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I,
but Christ liveth in me:
and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God:
for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal. 2:16–21.
The interesting thing is, is that righteousness does come by the Law. It is the very thing we are commanded to obey for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
and for instruction in righteousness, so that we might be throughly furnished unto all good works.
Like Lazarus, we are spiritually dead in all our faculties, unable to move about and have our [prophesied] being. But now I as a born-again believer live by the faith of the Son of God. It is not our faith by which we or anyone is saved, but by His faith, the faith of Jesus Christ through which we are justified and declared "Not Guilty!" of breaking the Law because our Substitution did it all for us. We have no faith to speak of for we cannot speak well of dead faith. But when we understand that Christ's perfect faith accomplished not only His personal obligation to God, God turned aroun d and uses it as the basis of our salvation, so that when He appeared as the Promised Spirit of God that is poured out upon all God's covenant people, we suddenly appeared also to receive it for our salvation and for our life and living.
