Unlike Jesus

[praise_yeshua]

This isn’t a game to me. You can leave anytime you want. I didn’t ask for this conversation. You did.

We can disagree. I do that often. As far as being in sync with @civic .... We definitely are. However, we have spent a very long time knowing each other's position. You haven't put forth such an effort to know Trinitarianism. That much is clear.

 

[praise_yeshua]

We really are. The conversation, which you initiated, is over.

You're inability to answer in detail doesn't have a thing to do with whether I responded to a comment you made or not.

 

[Matthias]

We can disagree. I do that often. As far as being in sync with @civic .... We definitely are. However, we have spent a very long time knowing each other's position. You haven't put forth such an effort to know Trinitarianism. That much is clear.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. I was raised trinitarian. I was taught trinitarianism by trinitarians. I taught trinitarianism.

 

[Matthias]

You're inability to answer in detail doesn't have a thing to do with whether I responded to a comment you made or not.

It isn’t inability to answer in detail. You haven’t analyzed the situation properly.

 

[praise_yeshua]

It isn’t inability to answer in detail. You haven’t analyzed the situation properly.

List what you consider to be #1 aspect that I haven't "analyzed properly". When you do, I will respond.

 

[Wrangler]

So Jesus didn't give enough if He was God? Doesn't that reflect on the Father?

No. The eternal Father cannot pay the wages of sin; this is why the story is of the Dynamic Duo, where master Jesus sacrificed all for us to God and Father’s glory. (Note: No 3rd person referenced)

Phill 2:7-11...
“
Phill 2:7-11...
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

 

[dwight92070]

Exodus 31:17
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

You don't really believe God got tired, do you? I think that is an anthropomorphism? Just like when He asked Adam, "Where are you?"
Isaiah 40:28 "Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth does not become weary or tired, His understanding is inscrutable. It's silly to say that Jesus got tired and therefore He cannot be God. Of course He got tired - He became a man.

 

[dwight92070]

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. Psalms 110:1 "A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

here "Lord" is H113 אָדוֹן 'adown (aw-done') n-m.
אָדֹן 'adon (aw-done') [shortened]
1. sovereign (i.e. controller, human or divine).
2. lord.
{also used as a prefix for names}
[from an unused root (meaning to rule)]
KJV: lord, master, owner.

and did not the "Lord" Jesus say, John 13:13 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am." and
Lord: here in the Greek is,
G2962 κύριος kurios (kï '-riy-os) n.
1. lord, supreme in authority, the one in control.
2. (also, by implication) sir or master (as a title showing respect for others).
3. (in Hebrew) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually Yahweh God of Israel - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
4. (in Hebrew) Yahweh. Outside the Hebraic Scriptures, rabbis rendered the name “Yahweh” as “LORD” or as “GOD” with the intent to keep this name utterly holy and away from any hint or speck of desecration. This practice continues fervently to this day.
5. (of ownership) an owner (especially of an animal or object).
[from κῦρος kŷrȏs “supremacy”]
KJV: God, Lord, master, Sir

NOTE: definition #3. keep that in mind and now let's go back to Psalms 110:1. so why is "Lord" translated "Lord" here and not "lord?" answer, because God/the LORD is G2758 κενόω kenoo (ke-no-ō')
1. to make empty.
2. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify.
[from G2756]
KJV: make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain
Root(s): G2756

per Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Philippians 2:8 "And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

but can we prove this out that the "Lord" is the "LORD" in human Flesh? yes, just as the term "Lord" in the Greek indicate God himself, so do the Hebrew. again back to Psalms 110 but now verse 5. Psalms 110:5 "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath."

the same "Lord" at the "LORD" right in verse 1 is in the Hebrew, Adonay an emphatic form of H113
H136 אֲדֹנָי 'Adonay (ad-o-noy') n-m.
1. (meaning) Lord (used as a proper name of God only).
2. (person) Adonai, The Lord God of Israel (which is actually “Yahweh God of Israel” - see Exodus 5:1 and 120 other occurrences).
[am emphatic form of H113]
KJV: (my) Lord.
Root(s): H113


101G

So are you Jehovah's Witness?

 

[dwight92070]

From this week's devotional reading:

the everlasting God, Adonai,
the Creator of the ends of the earth,
does not grow tired or weary?
His understanding cannot be fathomed.
Isaiah 40:28

Two points regarding the attributes of God, neither of which Jesus possesses.

1. The Creator does not grow tired or weary. Jesus grew tired.
2. The Creator's understanding cannot be fathomed. Jesus could fathom his own knowledge and deemed it less than the understanding of the Creator.

We have in the Biblical record that there was only one thing that He did not know - the time of His return. Why He or the Father chose for Him to not know that, we don't know. Other than that, "In Him are hidden ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

 

[dwight92070]

Right, the Creator is not the created Jesus.

Revelation 5:13-14 makes it clear that He is not a created being.

 

[Wrangler]

Revelation 5:13-14 makes it clear that He is not a created being.

The ‘son’ of God, ubiquitous in the NT, proves he is a created being by definition.

I do find it hilarious how trinitarians just sweep aside verses that demonstrate in various ways he is not God, only to introduce preferred verses - none of which come out and contradict the Biblical fact that he is not God but OF God - servant, priest, lamb, prophet, apostle, son, word, etc.

 

[praise_yeshua]

No. The eternal Father cannot pay the wages of sin; this is why the story is of the Dynamic Duo, where master Jesus sacrificed all for us to God and Father’s glory. (Note: No 3rd person referenced)

Phill 2:7-11...
“
Phill 2:7-11...
“No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

You're missing the point of the question. If you say the Son didn't give enough and the Father is in the Son (which is something you accept) then your position reflects poorly upon the Father as well.

 

[Wrangler]

You're missing the point of the question. If you say the Son didn't give enough and the Father is in the Son (which is something you accept) then your position reflects poorly upon the Father as well.

I did not miss the point one little bit! My answer is not your answer.

Because Jesus is not God, he gave it all, which is what is required for the payment of sin.

Further proof that Jesus is not God is because Jesus is a container, containinig - not merely "the Father" - but God in his whole, unitarian nature.


All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 1:3

There is one God, the Father
1 Cor 8:6

 

[praise_yeshua]

I did not miss the point one little bit! My answer is not your answer.

Because Jesus is not God, he gave it all, which is what is required for the payment of sin.

Further proof that Jesus is not God is because Jesus is a container, containinig - not merely "the Father" - but God in his whole, unitarian nature.


All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Ephesians 1:3

There is one God, the Father
1 Cor 8:6

You're assuming your positions is true. My comments are not based upon such an assumption.

You contrasted the "thought of God dying for man". You did not realize the context of such a contrast when you made your statement.

 

[Wrangler]

You're assuming your positions is true.

And you aren’t assuming your position is true?

The difference is I’m relying on explicit Scripture, whereas you are:

1. Disregarding explicit Scripture;
2. Superseding it with Eisegesis;
3. Disregarding 1,000’s of verses that imply Jesus is not God.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And you aren’t assuming your position is true?

The difference is I’m relying on explicit Scripture, whereas you are:

1. Disregarding explicit Scripture;
2. Superseding it with Eisegesis;
3. Disregarding 1,000’s of verses that imply Jesus is not God.

I dealt with a specific flaw in your assessment. You then proceeded to ignore this obvious flaw by appealing to a vast amount of information that you assume is true in your answer. I have not done the same. I'm dealing specifically with a specific aspect of your own words that reflect poorly upon the Father.

 

[Matthias]

Adon is the root word for both adoni and adonai.

Adon can be a deity or a non-deity title.

Adonai is a deity title. It occurs over 400 times in the OT.

Adoni is a non-deity title. It occurs 195 times in the OT.

Adoni can be, and sometimes is, a divine title. It is never a deity title.

The Messiah is adoni. When applied to him, it is a divine title.

“Adonai says to my Lord, …”

(Psalm 110:1, Complete Jewish Bible)

Dr. Stern, a Messianic Jew, has made a technical mistake. ”Lord” is the standard English translation of the Hebrew word adonai.

Dr. Stern, now deceased, unquestionably was able to read the Hebrew text. When he did, he read adoni in this verse but failed to properly translate it that way in English, “lord”.

Look again at Dr. Stern’s translation of the passage. Notice this time what he didn’t write -

“Adonai says to my Adonai, …”

Dr. Stern knew that the text doesn’t say that this is a prophetic oracle from Adonai to Adonai. He also knew that there is no such thing as Adonai and “my Adonai.” There is only Adonai.

What Dr. Stern should have written in English translation in order to be technically correct -

“Adonai says to my lord, …”

And why does he use Adonai in the first place? He’s a Jew. He is avoiding writing the proper name of God. He is substituting the deity title for the Tetragrammaton.

 

[101G]

So are you Jehovah's Witness?

no

101G.

 

[GeneZ]

From this week's devotional reading:

the everlasting God, Adonai,
the Creator of the ends of the earth,
does not grow tired or weary?
His understanding cannot be fathomed.
Isaiah 40:28

Two points regarding the attributes of God, neither of which Jesus possesses.

1. The Creator does not grow tired or weary. Jesus grew tired.
2. The Creator's understanding cannot be fathomed. Jesus could fathom his own knowledge and deemed it less than the understanding of the Creator.

Wrangler....

His humanity grew weary.

And, He needed to volunteer to isolate his humanity from direct empowering of his Deity.
Why?

To make himself be as a man.
Why?

It was the only way he could become our substitute on the Cross. (Philippians 2:6-8)

Who, being in very nature God,​

did not consider equality with God ​

something to be used to his own advantage;​

rather, he made himself nothing​

by taking the very nature of a servant,​

being made in human likeness.​

And being found in appearance as a man,​

he humbled himself​

by becoming obedient to death—​

even death on a cross!​

Jesus is TWO natures in union.

If you only concentrate on passages that speak of his human nature?
You are going to end up concluding erroneously as you have been doing.

He did such a good job of making Himself to become as a man that it fools you.
It does not have to remain that way.

.......

 

[Wrangler]

Wrangler....

His humanity grew weary.

You are parsing Scripture that is not parsed. Nothing in Scripture speaks of God's humanity. In fact, just the EXACT opposite.

P1. God is not man. Hosea 11:9
P2. Jesus is a man.
C. Jesus is NOT God.