Unlike Jesus
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civic
Well-known member
Yes we know the real Christ is the Creator who is before all things created and was/is worshiped equally with the Father by all creation. As Paul says its another jesus, another gospel in Galatians. The irony is its the modern day Judaizers doing the same thing as the Judaizers in Pauls day. Jesus had some harsh words for them in John 8:39-44. Jesus Father was not their Father.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Does your position hold Christ as the "Head" of all things? Can you explain how it does?
Matthias
Well-known member
My position is expressed in Ephesians 1:22.
Yes, but you’ve already asserted that you understand my position and that you’re certain that it doesn’t align with Paul’s.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
So you see a difference between
Eph 1:22 And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church,
Col 2:19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
?
I do. That doesn't an argument make.[/QUOTE]
Matthias
Well-known member
No.
Then explaining it to you would serve no purpose.
You’re reading Paul through the lens of trinitarianism and I’m reading Paul through the lens of Jewish monotheism.
Paul, like Jesus, is a Jewish monotheist.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It would make an argument that you're participating in.
Monotheism isn't Jewish. Jews disagree.
You're already start off on a "bad foot". I've meet many Trinitarians in my life. Not many of them agree on every aspect of the teaching.
I'm just recognizing that you believe Jesus isn't the Head of all things. There is nothing He isn't over. Heaven and Earth included.
Do you have somewhere else you think Jesus isn't over? I'd like to know about. Some undiscovered place found in the Scriptures?
Matthias
Well-known member
You’ve already made up your mind. Why then are you continuing to ask me questions about something I believe which you‘ve said you already understand?
What you’re doing was the subject of my daily Bible reading plan this morning. Someone else tried the same thing last night that you‘re trying today.
civic
Well-known member
Sure it is since Jesus and the Apostles were Jewish and they taught God is Plural in Persons as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
hope this helps !!!
Matthias
Well-known member
The God of Jesus is only one person. The God of the Apostles is his God. There is no God besides their God.
You’ve rightly identified them as Jewish. You’re reading your trinitarianism onto them and into what they said; eisegesis.
Jews aren’t trinitarians, unless they convert from the unitarianism of their forefathers to the much later trinitarianism of the Church.
Trinitarian and non-trinitarian scholars know this is true. It’s all part of the history of Judaism and the history of Christianity.
Trinitarianism comes from the Church, centuries after the Apostles died; not from the Jews.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
It is called a "dialogue" that others can benefit from. Also, surprise me . Sometimes I'm surprised. If I am, I will say so.
Matthias
Well-known member
You’ve read what I’ve said. Others have too. Those who haven’t yet are able to do so anytime that they please.
I’m for dialogue. I’m not for debate.
I don’t have anything to surprise you with.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
We know that Paul changed. We know that Christians Jews wrote the Scriptures. Who cares how some "scholar" seeks to "spin" anything.
Most of time, I can't say that I notice any changes in those that claim messianic Judaism. It is just a rebranded Pharisee teachings with some semblance of the name of Jesus attached to it.
I've tried to get them to tell me how Jesus is so much less than the Father for a very long time. They usually do what you're doing. They refuse to get into details.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Okay.
civic
Well-known member
This is worth repeating in this thread.
Jesus and the Apostles prove the extra biblical idea of Jewish Monotheism wrong.
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Col 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
conclusion: Someone else besides the Father is who was seen and heard in the OY who is identified as YHWH and its not the Father according to Christ. This should put an end to unitarianism. the question is who is the final authority on all things concerning God ? Is it Christ and the Apostles or is it the unitarians false concept of God ? Who do you believe ?
hope this helps !!!
Jesus and the Apostles prove the extra biblical idea of Jewish Monotheism wrong.
John 1:18
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
Col 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
1 Tim 1:17
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1 Tim 6:13-16
I charge you 14 to keep this command without spot or blame until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which God will bring about in his own time — God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
1 John 4:12
12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
conclusion: Someone else besides the Father is who was seen and heard in the OY who is identified as YHWH and its not the Father according to Christ. This should put an end to unitarianism. the question is who is the final authority on all things concerning God ? Is it Christ and the Apostles or is it the unitarians false concept of God ? Who do you believe ?
hope this helps !!!
Matthias
Well-known member
What you don’t know is that those changes they experienced didn’t change their understanding of who the one God is.
You have a low opinion of trinitarian scholars.
There are two branches of messianic Judaism. You just expressed that you think both branches - the largest branch by far being trinitarian - is “rebranded Pharisee teachings”.
The Pharisees weren’t trinitarians. Their teaching about the God of Israel wasn’t trinitarian.
I’ve mentioned on this forum some of my experiences with representatives from both branches of messianic Judaism.
I don’t know anything about your experience with them outside of what you’re sharing with me. If you approached them in the same way that you’ve approached me then no wonder they didn’t get into details with you - you think you know and understand it already.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Oh. I agree. It should have but it didn't. Which is why these same people you referenced sought to kill Paul.
Not entirely. Just eliminating any sense of an authoritative response from any of them. They do not speak for me. Which is why I prefer the details.
There are more than two. I simply referenced my experience. I did not deal specifically with all the various sects. There is no reason to pretend they are only two.
Never said they were. They are like you. Paul changed. Which is why he appealed to his own blasphemy for rejecting Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
Why don't you just deal with this one verse. What does "blasphemer" mean here? Might it be... REJECTING the rightful place of Jesus Christ? I'm so glad that Paul changed.
I'm not a novice. I have engaged them for years. You find many of them in and around Dispensational teachings. They find comfort in some Dispensational teachings.
They do get into details. They just soon abandon interaction. Much like you have. Just go ahead and tell me how much less Jesus is than the Father. I don't believe you're going anywhere by treating Jesus differently than the Father.
Matthias
Well-known member
So here we are again. You say that you know and understand what I believe. A person who knows and understands what another person believes isn’t asking questions in order to find out what the other person believes.
