Understanding........

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Good Doctrine Makes Good Talmidim (Disciples) by Rabbi Baruch​

There is no question that over the past several decades the believing community has placed less significance on proper doctrine for those who identify themselves as followers of Messiah Yeshua. Within the evangelical world there has been a resurgence of Reformed Theology, which has been often times embraced without considering the implications that some of the tenets of Reformed Theology hold dear. Before dealing with a few of these, allow me to say that there are some aspects of Reformed Theology which are praise worthy. For example, a desire to place all the glory and honor on G-d for the work and the outcome of a salvation experience. However in doing so, Reformed theologians have misinterpreted several Scriptural verses and formed doctrines which are not supported by the Biblical texts. In this article and the ones which will follow, we will begin to take a critical look at some of the major tenets of Reformed Theology. The first doctrine that will be studied is the Sovereignty of G-d.
Sovereignty of G-d
In one sense this doctrine sounds quite elementary; after all, who would not agree that G-d is sovereign. The issue is how to understand the implications and intent of the fact that G-d is sovereign. HaShem is L-rd and Master; He is the King over all and is absolutely omnipotent. Here again, there should not be any disagreement with this. The conflict arises when one interprets the sovereignty of G-d to mean that if something were to happen that is not the will of G-d, it would infringe upon G-d being sovereign. Hence for some, the sovereignty of G-d demands that all that takes place must be the will of G-d. Not all Reformed theologians agree with this extreme position, but those who do rely on either poorly interpreted passages or mistranslations which further their positions. One such verse is Proverbs 16:33.
בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת-הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל-מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃
I have included the Hebrew to show how translators play with the text in order to support a preconceived position.
When examining some popular translations one finds translations such as,
“People cast lots to learn God’s will, but God himself determines the answer.” Good News Bible
“The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD” King James Version
“The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.” New International Version
“One can cast lots into one’s lap, but the decision comes from ADONAI.” Complete Jewish Bible
“We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall.” New Living Translation
“Into the centre is the lot cast, and from Jehovah [is] all its judgment!” Young’s Literal Translation
More or less all agree with one another, except the Young’s Literal Translation. What is the verse saying? If one relies on the most popular Bible translations, then the text is saying, “One can ponder long and hard about what to do, but ultimately everyone decides in accordance with what G-d determines.” Is this truly the intent of the Hebrew words in this verse? The answer is absolutely not. It is the Young’s Literal Translation that comes nearest to the intent of the actual verse. Let us take the verse apart one word at a time.
בַּחֵיק יוּטַל אֶת-הַגּוֹרָל וּמֵיְהוָה כָּל-מִשְׁפָּטוֹ׃
בַּחֵיק This word is actually two Hebrew words put together. The first is attached like a prefix to the primary word. This first word means, “In the”. The second word which is translated in several translations as “lap” is referring to that which is “in the midst of”. The word is used in the Hebrew New Testament in Luke 16:22. There it is translated as the “bosom” of Abraham. In the Luke passage it is referring to the portion of Sheol where the faithful went. This is in contrast to Hades or Hell where the faithless went. Next the Proverbs passage has the word יוּטַל . The word implies “casting” or “throwing”. It is a verb, and that which was thrown or casted in this verse was אֶת-הַגּוֹרָל . The first word here is a non-translatable particle אֶת whose only purpose is to point out the definite article. It is in the next phrase (actually two words) the reader learns that which was thrown or cast. Although most translations render this phrase as “the lot”, it is not the same phrase which appears in the book of Esther in 3:7 (to cast lots) הִפִּיל פּוּר where both the noun and verb are different. Instead of using the word for “lot” פּוּר the word which means “destiny” or “ones future” appears in the Proverbs passage.
The first half of this verse is a Hebrew idiom which relates to one thinking within himself or pondering what he should do. In other words, the subject of Proverbs 16:33 is simply trying to make a decision. How most translations render this first half is not so problematic if one understands that “a person casting lots” was for the purpose of making a decision”. It is the second half of this where the true intent of the verse is manifested.
The problem occurs in rightly understanding one word. This is the last word in the verse. Before dealing with it, let us deal with the four words that precede it. The next phrase in Hebrew is וּמֵיְהוָה . It is actually three Hebrew words, וּ meaning “and” or “but”, מֵ meaning “from” and finally the sacred name of the L-RD יְהוָה . Therefore, it must be translated, “but from the L-rd (HaShem) is”. The next word is כָּל which simply means “all of” or “every”.
Let us put it all together except for the final word of the verse. The verse would read: “In the inner part he will ponder the future, but from the L-rd is all of….” The final Hebrew word (actually one word with a possessive pronoun attached to it) is מִשְׁפָּטוֹ . The final letter וֹ is the possessive pronoun meaning “its”. The word מִשְׁפָּט is not a difficult one to render, it means “judgment”. Hence the proper translation for Proverbs 16:33 is:
In the inner part he will ponder the future, but from the L-rd is all of its judgment.”
The intent of the verse is to say this: when one is pondering what he should do and is trying to reach a decision on a matter, he should be aware that the L-rd will be the One Who will judge this decision. What a sobering thought. I am free to make the decision, but I need to always remember that the decision I make will be brought ultimately under G-d’s judgment. This being the case, a wise individual would want to utilize the Scripture and much prayer in arriving at the decision which G-d will judge to be appropriate.
Those translations which render this verse to mean, you can cast lots to make a decision, but in actuality the outcome will be from the L-rd, are allowing an extreme and unbiblical form of predestination to influence their rendering of the verse. Why do they do so?
They do so because their view of the sovereignty of G-d demands that everything that happens has to be G-d’s will. If something that happens is outside His will, according to them, G-d is not sovereign.
In the next article we will see how a false understanding of the Sovereignty of G-d perverts the understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election.
Author: Dr. Baruch Korman
Interesting but nothing to do with mathematical possibilities of what I said isn't relevant to Christian doctrine.
 
Interesting but nothing to do with mathematical possibilities of what I said isn't relevant to Christian doctrine.
Nobody said it did and it has obvious nothing to do with Christian doctrine, because it is Messianic. I made the mathematical possibilities theory, because I live in a world of numbers and that is where armininism falls a part.
 
Adonai knew before creation that Adam and Eve would sin and the consequences that would follow. Adonai wasn't surprised when Adam and Eve sinned. Adonai does the chosing and planning because He is sovereign. Why did He choose a Jewish virgin to bring Yeshua into the world and not a Roman virgin? Why did He choose Moses to give the Jews the 10 commands and not Aaron?
Do you think that human events happen without Adonai's planning or approval?
.You do have free will, but Adonai orchestrates when, where and how that
free will results according to His plan for the ages.
Sovereignty does not necessitate divine meticulous determination of all things
 
Nobody said it did and it has obvious nothing to do with Christian doctrine, because it is Messianic. I made the mathematical possibilities theory, because I live in a world of numbers and that is where armininism falls a part.
Much appreciated if you could explain that a little further. How could numbers cause armininism to fall apart. And not that I totally agree with that either but what do you mean.
 
????????

Does god experience time?
No Adonai is the creator of time and space.
Most of the Rabbinical thought on so called 'climate change' is that the world is aging just like our bodies and one day Adonai will create a new earth. Besides, unless you can change the number of hours in a 24 hour day
nothing you do will substantially effect so called 'climate change' Recalling from B'resheet (Genesis) there will be times of heat and cold..
 
No Adonai is the creator of time and space.
Most of the Rabbinical thought on so called 'climate change' is that the world is aging just like our bodies and one day Adonai will create a new earth. Besides, unless you can change the number of hours in a 24 hour day
nothing you do will substantially effect so called 'climate change' Recalling from B'resheet (Genesis) there will be times of heat and cold..
Climate change formerly global warming is a hoax
 
Climate change formerly global warming is a hoax
Yes it is. I know my tree hugging Uber green friends will be upset. Global warming is the biggest political and financial scam of this century. Remember how we had to change over from Freon 12 to 134a for auto air conditioning because we were depleting the ozone? Same type scam different day.
 
Yes it is. I know my tree hugging Uber green friends will be upset. Global warming is the biggest political and financial scam of this century. Remember how we had to change over from Freon 12 to 134a for auto air conditioning because we were depleting the ozone? Same type scam different day.
Just another way to try to control us peasants.
 
ImCo,
a free will makes self determined decisions of which option is best from his own pov.

A coercion forces the person to choose an option that someone else has predetermined him to choose or which he would not necessarily choose without that force being applied. A coercion cannot be resisted.

An influence is a force applied to someone's decision making process to get them to choose in a certain way but it does not have the power of a coercion so an influence can be resisted.
Great. Not sure how this is relevant
 
Oh we can often tell when folk don't read the whole thing from other people but jump in with their own carefully crafted definitions...so I use such posts as springboards to share, not to try to teach.

If by free will all we mean is the ability to chose then free will is meaningless and has no value.

Sophisticated language skills do not prove the ability to choose indicates a free will. ImCo, an uncoerced will allows a person to decide for himself from his own thoughts and desires which option is the best for himself...a determined will choses and does what the Determiner has decided he will choose, not himself. If someone needs a different definition to make their theology work then...shrug.

Satan, who is totally leavened in evil, fully and completely enslaved to the power of evil, still makes choices but so what - he is not free to choose righteousness but is constrained by his previous decisions. His ability to choose between two evil actions is no indication that his will is free to choose any option.

The ability to choose, though a common factor in all choices, is not the determining feature of a free will. Being free means in ordinary terms to able to choose by his own will, that is, by his own determination of what he wants, not someone else's will or what He wants.
No one denies you don't have the natural ability to choose. NEXT
 
You mean like these?

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)



…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining. There are great measures of self-determination, as the Bible often shows, but never is man the ultimate or decisive cause of his preferences and choices. When man’s agency and God’s agency are compared, both are real, but God’s is decisive. Yet — and here’s the mystery that causes so many to stumble — God is always decisive in such a way that man’s agency is real, and his responsibility remains. A beginners guide to free will

“God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…




Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

Quote may be found




how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205
Excellent!
 
You apparently failed to understand

What I can do is present many Early church fathers who indicate man by his free will is able to chose both for or against god

In fact, I have a thread with multiple quotes showing that

No one teaches God compels?

Irresistible grace do so to start with but

4. Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy e(b)A second sin arises, that they never consider God at all unless compelled to; and they do not come nigh until they are dragged there despite their resistance. And not even then are…
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Institutes I, iv, 4, p 50 (1 time)

1. The Clarity of God’s Self-Disclosure Strips Us of Every Excuse
workmanship of the universe. As a consequence, men cannot open their eyes without being compelled to see him. Indeed, his essence is incomprehensible;3 hence, his divineness far escapes all…
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Institutes I, v, 1, p 52 (1 time)

A Source of Security and Courage
men, regardless of whatever tumults they may cause, are not only restrained of God but are compelled to do His pleasure. Elisha, lonely and forgotten, counted those who were with him more than…
The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p 329 (1 time)
What you can really do is show us where they mention LFW. Without presuppositions it the first place.

I believe in free will. Merely quoting the phrase does not prove LFW.

Provisionist presupposition #1 LFW
 
You apparently failed to understand

What I can do is present many Early church fathers who indicate man by his free will is able to chose both for or against god

In fact, I have a thread with multiple quotes showing that

No one teaches God compels?

Irresistible grace do so to start with but

4. Hypocrisy
Hypocrisy e(b)A second sin arises, that they never consider God at all unless compelled to; and they do not come nigh until they are dragged there despite their resistance. And not even then are…
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Institutes I, iv, 4, p 50 (1 time)

1. The Clarity of God’s Self-Disclosure Strips Us of Every Excuse
workmanship of the universe. As a consequence, men cannot open their eyes without being compelled to see him. Indeed, his essence is incomprehensible;3 hence, his divineness far escapes all…
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Institutes I, v, 1, p 52 (1 time)

A Source of Security and Courage
men, regardless of whatever tumults they may cause, are not only restrained of God but are compelled to do His pleasure. Elisha, lonely and forgotten, counted those who were with him more than…
The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, p 329 (1

Compelled not coerced. They are not the same thing.
 
Compelled not coerced. They are not the same thing.
That is debatable


com·pel
[kəmˈpel]
verb
compelled (past tense) · compelled (past participle)
  1. force or oblige (someone) to do something:
    "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"
    Similar:
    force
    pressure
    impel
    drive
    press
    push
    urge
    oblige
    • bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure:
      "they may compel a witness's attendance at court by issue of a summons"
    • literary
      drive forcibly:
 
That is debatable


com·pel
[kəmˈpel]
verb
compelled (past tense) · compelled (past participle)
  1. force or oblige (someone) to do something:
    "a sense of duty compelled Harry to answer her questions"
    Similar:
    force
    pressure
    impel
    drive
    press
    push
    urge
    oblige
    • bring about (something) by the use of force or pressure:
      "they may compel a witness's attendance at court by issue of a summons"
    • literary
      drive forcibly:
Compelled is different than coercion.
 
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