Our salvation would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sins while we continued to live in sin, so our salvation from sin must also include being saved from continuing to live in sin. In other word, our salvation is not just about being restored to how we were before we had sinned, but about being made to be like Christ. We need to put our trust in Christ's as the guide for how we should live our lives. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness are not born again. Christ is God's word made flesh, someone refusing to obey God's word is the way to die as a rejector of Christ.
Under Grace
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Behold
Well-known member
The blood of Jesus is the eternal pardon for all sin.
If its not applied to you, then you are not Pardoned, = Un-pardonable...sin".
= Dying unforgiven.
When we come to the Cross, believing in Jesus, God takes the Blood of Jesus, The Blood Atonement, that is the New Covenant.... and applies it like this... to us..
A.) "God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"...
So, there goes your sin......they BECAME Jesus who "bore our sin on the Cross".
"but what if i ".... = "Jesus became sin for us"
"buit what if i "... = "Jesus became sin for us".
"but what about".... "Jesus became sin for us"...
The Cross of Christ..... is the eternal resolution of all our sin.
Notices these 3 verses that are THE RESULT of Christ becoming "sin" for us.
2nd Corinthians 5:19
John 3:17
Romans 4:8
The Cross of Christ is applied to the Believer.
Its not applied to the Christ rejector, who is never born again.
THe Person who is never born again, and dies like that... is this one..
John 3:36
Behold
Well-known member
The only reason a person goes to hell after they die, is because their unforgiven sin, does not allow them to Go to Heaven.
Its just one Sin, = Christ Rejection...never born again.
"Sin separates us from God"< exactly like it separated Adam from God.
God, came here, to die on the Cross to take care of our SIN, by dying as the Sacrifice for all our sin, and this is our Salvation.
This is JESUS taking the punishing and judgment due us for our sin, upon His virgin born Flesh.
"REDEMPTION">
Overjoyed
Member
Excellent post.
4 Dwell in Me, and I will dwell in you. [Live in Me, and I will live in you.] Just as no branch can bear fruit of itself without abiding in (being vitally united to) the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. Whoever lives in Me and I in him bears much (abundant) fruit. However, apart from Me [cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
6 If a person does not dwell in Me, he is thrown out like a [broken-off] branch, and withers; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you live in Me [abide vitally united to Me] and My words remain in you and continue to live in your hearts, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:4–7.
The Spirit of Jesus is put into me by the Atonement, then I have to construct with patience the way of thinking that is exactly in accordance with my Lord. God will not make me think like Jesus, I have to do it myself; I have to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Oswald Chambers, My Utmost for His Highest
Behold
Well-known member
Well, there is a final conforming into the image of Christ that is "pre-destined" to happen to everyone who is born again.
This happens after we die., or are Raptured.
Then there is the process of self denial and "carrying our cross" and "presenting our body as a living sacrifice to God", and there is a process of Hebrews 12:6, and some "inner" work that God does, in us all, so that we become like this....... "the fullness of the stature of Christ".
But MOSTLY, the power of Christ, that Paul says is "not i who live" and "Christ always gives me the Victory", is based on revelation knowledge regarding completely understanding what it means to be "made righteous" "in Christ", having become "the righteousness of God in Christ".
Christianity is Spiritual, and this means that we perform it, spiritually, or its a work of the flesh.
That is DISCIPLESHIP.... that follows Salvation.
See, real believers and fake believers confuse what God did for them, 2000 yrs ago on the Cross, that is our Salvation, with, .... how we now walk out our faith, which is our discipleship.
Here is something we must understand..
Salvation is not Discipleship.
Discipleship follows Salvation, exactly as water baptism follows salvation.
Understanding that Salvation is GOD SUPPLIED... and our Discipleship is what we do, AFTER we have RECEIVED God's Salvation... is the first step of correctly understanding being 'IN Christ".
To "put on the Helmet of Salvation" is to obey this verse, by understanding it...
Hebrews 13:9
You are ignoring part of what Titus 2:11-14 describes of our salvation.
There is also an aspect of our salvation that is ongoing in the present where are are being made to be more like Christ, which is discipleship, which is part of the salvation that Christ gave himself to secure for us. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked. Christ expressed the righteousness of God through living in obedience to God's law, so that is the way that we live when he is living in us and we have become the righteousness of God. Part of what Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to accomplish is in regard to the way that we walk out our faith. Again, Titus 2:11-13 does not say that we will do those works after we have received God's salvation, but describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works.
Do you affirm or deny the truth of what Titus 2:11-14 says in regard to our salvation?
Behold
Well-known member
That does not happen, as a Born again Christian, is not going anywhere, other then "in Christ", and "One with God"., as they are already "seated in Heavenly places", even before they ever did one good work, or were water baptized.
Salvation is a Gift, and we dont earn it by being Good branches.. We are given it by the Holy One who shed His blood and died on the Cross so that we can have it as "the Gift of Salvation">
So, be careful not to misuse and twist SYMBOLIC VERSES that talk about vines, and candles, and foolish virgins, and point them at the Born again.
Behold
Well-known member
Jesus is Salvation.
We don't do it, we receive it, as He completed it 2000 Yrs ago.
Jesus is Salvation, not our works.
He told us fron the Cross., that He is our Salvation..... when He told us.."IT, is finished".
Its the "Gift of Salvation".....and we dont earn it nor do we keep it.......Its God who keeps us because we have been given "the Righteousness of God in Christ", "born again">
Philippians 1:6
Again, Its JESUS on the Cross who is Salvation.
That is NOT your Discipleship.
Christ is the one who Kept the Law.
The born again are.... "NOT under the LAW, but UNDER GRACE"
"Christ is the END OF THE LAW....for Righteousness, to everyone who BELIEVES"
"Faith" is counted as Righteousness"..., by God .
"Without FAITH it is impossible to Please God"...
Works do not please God.. Works simply are the proof that the Spirit of God is engaged with our Discipleship, = as "Spiritual Fruit".
But, here is the thing... An unbeliever can get water baptized, and do all the works you can do, Soyeong.
And does that make them a Christian?
Does getting wet and giving to the poor, save you?
Its does not.
So, "works" are not required to be born again, nor do works prove that a person IS Born again.
What prove that a person has become a Christian and is going to heaven?
Only This :
Jesus said .. "YOU MUST BE Born again", and water cant cause a Spiritual Birth.
So then you deny Titus 2:11-14 while I have faith in it.
Jesus is the embodiment of God's word, so us embodying God's word by following his example through faith is the way that he is salvation, which is discipleship in accordance with what Jesus gave himself to accomplish through the cross in Titus 2:14.
In Revelation 14:12, those who kept the law are the same as those who kept faith in Jesus, so it is contradictory to have faith in the embodiment of God's word while not having faith in God's word. God's word can't be ended without ending God's word made flesh, but rather knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who believes. Being counted as righteous through faith means being counted as someone who practices righteousness through faith.
In Proverbs 3:5-7, we have a choice of whether we are going to lean on our own understanding of right and wrong by doing what is right in our own eyes, or whether we are going to trust in God with all of our heart to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed, and He will make our way straight, and this is what it means to have faith. Rather, it is disobedient to God that does not please Him. Baptism is part of the way to express faith and it is by that faith that we are saved.
In James 2:18, he would show his works through his faith, so anyone who is doing the same works has the same faith and it is contradictory to consider them to be an unbeliever. Again, in 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness are not born again, which is going to keep undermining your position.
Behold
Well-known member
I didnt deny it. I explained it.
The verse says that the Grace of God hath APPEARED to all men.
"Appeared".......... and this is JESUS come to the earth, Virgin born....>He is the Grace of God who came.. APPEARED.... to this earth, (Appeared), and this Grace, is Himself on the Cross, and is given to ALL MEN.
Discipleship is what you do today....., and Salvation is what God completed as Christ on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago.
They are not the same.
We , the bride of Christ are not in Revelation 14. We are in the "time of the Gentiles" . And our Apostle given to us, is Paul, who is the "Apostle to the Gentiles".
His Gospel, is "Grace through Faith""without works of the Law". "Faith is counted as righteousness"... "Justification BY Faith".
So, if you miss the Rapture... and end up in the Trib and The Great Trib, then be sure to keep that Law and ALL those commandments and be sure to endure to the end of the Tribulation, and also be martyr'd, and if you do all that, you'll go to heaven.
But we dont have to do all that "in the Time of the Gentiles'., as WE ARE SAVED BY : "GRACE Through Faith" that is the "GIFT of Salvation"
You dont work for a Gift.
You dont earn a Gift.
You only RECEIVE IT.
"the GIFT of Salvation".
I dont try to use the OT to correct the New Covenant, and when you do this, you are teaching serious error.
Dont do that.
Water only gets you wet.. While the Cross of Christ, that is the Blood Atonement and New Covenant, is the WAY to the Father, ... John 14:6
"without the shedding of BLOOD there is no forgiveness or remission of sin".
WATER is not Blood.
Water is not "shed for the remission of Sin".
Water baptism can not deal with sin., as it takes BLOOD. And for sin to be dealt with forever, takes the Blood of Jesus., that is the Blood Atonement, = that is the NEW Covenant.
That is not what your verse says..
Your verse says that James will show YOU his faith.
"I will show YOU "... He says,, his faith by his works.
He does not say..>"i will show GOD my faith by my works".....
Why not? Because God sees your HEART, and does not look at your works...
So, what James is teaching, is that OTHER PEOPLE will look for your WORKS, *you shall know them by their FRUIT">.... which proves your faith is alive, is real.. is not dead.
"I will show ...... YOU My works...... " James says.
Read the verse more carefully.
What you said directly contradicts Titus 2:11-14. It describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, but you say that we need to be saved first and those works are the fruit. It says that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to receive Jesus and salvation (Acts 21:20). Jesus is our salvation and Jesus is the embodiment of God's word, so us embodying God's word through following his example is what it means to say that Jesus is salvation, the way to believe in what he finished through the cross, and it is the content of the gift of salvation. Obedience to God's law has nothing to do with earning our salvation, but rather living in obedience to it is what it means to be given the righteousness of God in Christ and to be born again (1 John 3:10).
Part of what Titus 2:14 says that Jesus accomplished on the cross is purifying for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, which is also known as discipleship. So there is an aspect of the salvation that Jesus completed through the cross 2000 years ago that is in regard to what we do today.
In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed God's law, living in obedience to it is the content of His gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it.
There are many verses in the NT that connect our faith with our obedience to God, so I was not correcting the New Covenant, but was quoting Proverbs 3:5-7 to help you to understand the New Covenant. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is trustworthy, so the way to trust God is by obeying what He has instructed while it is contradictory to think that God is trustworthy, but that what He has instructed is not.
About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusions to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they were saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it, so they certainly saw the OT as still being authoritative and had no problem with quoting from it, as should you. In Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what he said was true, so according to that precedent, agreement with the OT is the standard by which we should accept the truth of the NT.
Indeed, water gets us wet, but the purpose of baptism is not to get wet. Indeed, water is not blood, is not shed for the remission of sin, and does not deal with our sin, but baptism expresses faith and it is by that faith that we are saved.
God's law is His way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus lived in sinless obedience to God's law, so he is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7).
Granted he did not say that he would shoo God his faith by his works, though it is nevertheless still the way that he showed God his faith. Our works show what is in our heart. Do you have faith in the goodness of God to guide how you should live your life? It is contradictory to have faith in God while refusing to have faith in what He has instructed.
The problem is that you do not see getting to live in obedience to God's law as being a gift and can't see beyond obeying it as having any other purpose by trying to earn our salvation.
Behold
Well-known member
As long as you dont believe that "being Trained"is to be Redeemed.
God does the "purifying" through the blood of Jesus.
This is not you doing it by trying to keep the OT covenant.
"Christ is the END....OF....THE....LAW.....for righteousness, to everyone who Believes"
We are saved by "Grace...through faith"
"Faith is counted by God as Christ's righteousness, given to us, as the Gift of Salvation"
The "new Covenant" is the Blood Atonement. that is the Grace of God given as "The Gift of Righteousness".
And about 50% of clouds dont produce rain.
The Law can't save you.
The Commandments can't save you.
See the Cross of Christ alone if you want to go to Heaven.
Paul didnt.
Read Philippians 3 if you have time
Spiritual Baptism, is the regeneration.
This does not happen by the city water supply.
The Law and Commandments are not found in Heaven.
They were given to sinners on earth.
Salvation is a Gift, that does no make requirements of you to receive it.
Rockson
Well-known member
So then you need to answer this question. Do you believe then that all believers if they're not physically circumcised then they need to do this right away? You see you just can't say the Mosaic law is for today and not have this as a part.
Either Paul only spoke against incorrect reasons for becoming circumcised or according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council in Acts 16:3 and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of men in the US. Moreover, if Paul was speaking against Gentiles becoming circumcised for any reason, then Abraham caused Christ to be of no value to the Gentiles of his household when he had them circumcised and of no value to the Gentiles who wanted to participate in eating the Passover lamb (Exodus 12:48). In Acts 15:1, there were men from Judea who were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld the Mosaic Law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. The Jerusalem Council did not have the authority to countermand God, so they should not be interpreted as ruling against obeying anything that God has commanded, which means that there is room for Gentiles becoming circumcised that is in accordance with what God has commanded.
That is not a complete sentence. Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do works.
Jesus giving himself to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works still involves our participation, and our participation has nothing to do with trying to purify ourselves.
In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Jesus is the GOAL OF THE LAW.
In Romans 9::30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the GOAL OF THE LAW by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own instead of pursuing it as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the GOAL OF THE LAW for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey, in regard to saying that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead (Titus 2:14). So nothing in this passage has anything to do with Jesus ending God's law, but just the opposite.
Moreover, this does not negate the fact that Psalms 119:29-30 describes the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith.
Indeed, few are saved by faith, and obedience to God's law is the way to have that faith and is part of the gift of salvation.
The New Covenant involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and getting to obey it is the content of the gift of righteousness. This does not negate that Proverbs 3:5-7 describes the way to trust God with all of our heart. Do you trust God with all of your heart to correctly guide you in how to live through what He has instructed?
That does not negate the fact that the NT authors frequently referenced the OT as an authoritative source.
I did not say that we earn our salvation as the result of obeying God, though living in obedience to God is the content of His gift of saving us from not living in obedience to Him. Even the demons believe that Jesus was crucified, so it doesn't do someone any good if they don't understand what Jesus accomplished through the cross means for how they should live their lives.
Philippians 3 does not say anything against Paul viewing the OT as being authoritative. How does it make sense to you for Paul to frequently quote the OT to support what he was saying if he did not consider the OT to be an authoritative source?
That's still missing the point of baptism.
The does not negate the fact that there are many verses that describe God's law as being God's way.
Someone being a gift does not mean that there are no requirements to receive it. For example, while God gave the Israelites the promised land as a gift they were still required to go to the land in order to possess it. If someone hands you a gift, you are still required to unwrap and open it. If a professional musician trained someone in how to play an instrument as a gift to them, then that would still require their participation to receive it. If someone were given the gift of the experience of getting to drive a Ferrari for an hour, then they would still be required to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience.
Behold
Well-known member
Doing works is : DISCIPLESHIP........not Salvation.
Salvation is Jesus on the Cross, and you can't do that one.
Being Zealous to do good works, is Discipleship.... not Salvation.
Salvation is JESUS ON THE CROSS.
The goal of the law is to show you that you are a sinner, needing to go to the Cross to receive Salvation.
Galatians 3:24
24 Wherefore the law ....WAS.... our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The born again are "NOT under the LAW, but UNDER GRACE".
Is the Cross of Christ
Paul teaches in Phil 3 that trying to be righteous by the Law is "DUNG".
Water gets you wet.
Its has no power.
Water baptism is symbolic... its a "figure" that shows that the Born again are raised into newness of Life, "in Christ".
The Devil will teach the law in place of the Cross.
So will his Cults.
There is a requirement.
"Repent from unbelief and BELIEVE IN JESUS".
Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do works, but you say that doing these works is discipleship and not our salvation, which why you are denying the truth of these verses. Likewise, becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is in accordance with believing in what he accomplished through the cross, not adding our own works on top of his.
Again, Titus 2:11-14 describes becoming zealous for doing good works as part of the salvation that Jesus accomplished through the cross, which is why you are denying these verses.
The law brings us to Christ because its goal is to teach us how to know him and knowing God and Jesus is eternal life (John 17:3).
In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again. In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe God's law, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin and in 1 John 3:4, sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are still under it and obligated to obey it. In addition, everything else in Romans 6 speaks in favor obedience to God's law and against sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace.
The cross of Christ involves God putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts.
I have not suggest that the reason why we should obey God's law is in order to become righteous. In Romans 3:21-22, the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ, so Paul was not saying anything that was contrary to the authority of the Law and the Prophets.
Again, the purpose of baptism is not to get wet.
Do you think that followers of God should walk in God's way? The Devil does not have the role of leading us to walk in God's way.
God's law is His instructions for how to do that.
Behold
Well-known member
No works are accepted by God to accept us, so, Discipleship is not why God accepts us.
You can be a Disciple of Christ and go to hell, but you can't Be BORN AGAIN, and go to hell.
Jesus told some DISCIPLES...."i never KNEW YOU" "Depart from me'""" and they were doing good works.
Salvation, .. being born again, is to become a Son/Daughter of God, and a Disciple.
You can be a Disciple, and not be born again, but you can't be born again, and not be a Disciple.
Im denying your interpretation of Salvation., as you are trying to add WORKS to the Finished work of Jesus on the Cross.
The Law reveals that you are a SINNER, and once you understand this, because the Law and Commandments reveal it, then you go to the CROSS for Salvation, from the Law, and from eternal judgement.
You are very obsessed with OT Law.
You need to become obsessed with the Cross of Christ, instead.
Titus 2:11-14 describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works, but you insist that it is describing discipleship rather than salvation, so you are denying what it states.
In John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness are not children of God, so if someone is not a disciple, then they are not born again. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus was not speaking to his disciples, but to those who are workers of lawlessness, which are not his disciples.
All who are disciples are born again.
In Titus 2:14, it directly describes what Jesus gave himself to accomplish on the cross and purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing, so I am not adding that to what he accomplished.
In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is again eternal life (John 17:3). God's law also reveal our sin by contrast, so if you agree that we should repent from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should agree that we should repent and obey God's law, which is the way to go to the cross for salvation. Our salvation is not from the God's law, but from sin, which is living in transgression of it. The freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to sin.
Thank you. The way to follow the greatest command is by being obsessed with God's law (Deuteronomy 6:4-7). In Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the Law of the Lord and who meditate on it day and night. Do you agree or disagree with the truth of these verses?
Jesus gave himself to purify for a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law, so being obsessed with doing that is the way to be obsessed with the cross (Acts 21:20).
Behold
Well-known member
Christ came to deliver us from the curse of the law.
Let Paul show you this...
"""""Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; """"
Notice "DEAD to the LAW".
Why?
"Because CHRIST is the END OF THE LAW....for righteousness, to everyone who believes".
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