Transmitting The Original Sin

[Olde Tymer]

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It's believed by a pretty large percentage of modern Christians that the so-called
original sin-- a.k.a. the forbidden fruit incident per the 3rd chapter of Genesis --is
passed down thru one's parents, in particular the fathers. Oh? Then whence did Eve
obtain it?

She was already fully sentient and fully constructed from material taken from
Adam's body prior to his tasting the forbidden fruit so it was too late for him to
transmit the sin to his wife via reproduction.

The reality is: Adam's disobedience isn't inherited, rather, it's merited. According to
Rom 5:12-21 Adam's entire posterity was there with him in real time as joint
principals in the act so that complicity doesn't take place for each in his own time,
rather; it took place for everyone all at once in real time.

FAQ: Did Jesus' virgin conception isolate him from the original sin?

REPLY: Every human being descends from Adam (Acts 17:26) Therefore, if any part
of his mother's body was used to conceive Jesus-- any part at all --then Adam was
Jesus' paternal grandfather and thus he too was a joint principal in Adam's act;
which means of course that had Jesus not be crucified he would've eventually passed
away of old age just like everybody else.

FAQ: If that's true, then how can 1Pet 1:19 honestly say Jesus was a lamb without
blemish or spot?

REPLY: Jesus committed no sins of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21,
Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

FAQ: Was Adam's disobedience Hell-worthy?

REPLY: The proper retribution for that particular sin is mortality (Gen 2:17). In
other words; when folks pass away, they're done with that one but they still have
to answer for their own sins at the great white throne event depicted by Rev 20:11-15.
_

 

[Diserner]

Just for reference to an opposing view, if that would be ok, here is a full defense of original sin. I think it differs a little from inherited guilt.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/four-reasons-i-believe-in-the-sinful-nature-original-sin-ancestral-sin-total-depravity.384/

 

[Olde Tymer]

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Just for reference to an opposing view, if that would be ok

You go ahead and post as many references to opposing views as you like-- God
speed --because pro and con was the traditional American way before the wokes
came along demanding only their opinions be heard and calling the rest of us
misinformation peddlers and deplorable extremists.
_

 

[Diserner]

I hear that!

I think your posts are interesting even if and when I find a bone to pick.

 

[TomL]

The reality is: Adam's disobedience isn't inherited, rather, it's merited. According to
Rom 5:12-21 Adam's entire posterity was there with him in real time as joint
principals in the act so that complicity doesn't take place for each in his own time,
rather; it took place for everyone all at once in real time.

Um Romans 5 does not teach Adam's entire posterity was there in the garden seminally in Adam and thus guilty


2 Kings 14:6 (UASV) — 6 But the sons of the murderers he did not put to death, according to what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, as Jehovah commanded, saying, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the sons, nor the sons be put to death for the fathers; but each one shall die for his own sin.”

2 Chronicles 25:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Jeremiah 31:30 (KJV 1900) — 30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: Every man that eateth the sour grape, His teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Olde Tymer]

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FAQ: How can Rom 5:12-21 be valid when the Bible says a man's children are
not held accountable for his mistakes? For example:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the
father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the
righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be
charged against him." (Ezek 18:20, cf. Deut 24:16)

REPLY: The secret to this is simply timing. According to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15,
Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, the laws of God-- especially His codified rules and
regulations --are not enforced ex post facto, i.e. they aren't retroactive.

FAQ: How was God able to pardon David for the sins of murder and adultery when
his administration was under the jurisdiction of Gen 9:5-6 and Lev 20:10?

REPLY: God is not required to enforce those particular laws. It is incumbent upon man
to execute murders and adulterers, not Him-- no, for God; enforcement is technically
an option rather than an obligation.

FAQ: How is that not a double standard: one for God and one for man?

REPLY: Contractual laws-- a.k.a. covenants --are legal agreements wherein are specified
God's responsibilities and man's his, viz: contractual laws don't always reflect moral
absolutes. For example Noah's covenant with God allowed him to eat whatever he wanted
with very few restrictions, whereas the Jews' covenant with God regulates their diet with
quite a number of restrictions. Christians' covenant with God is similar to Noah's in that
they too may eat whatever they want with very few restrictions.
_

 

[TomL]

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FAQ: How can Rom 5:12-21 be valid when the Bible says a man's children are
not held accountable for his mistakes? For example:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the
father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the
righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be
charged against him." (Ezek 18:20, cf. Deut 24:16)

REPLY: The secret to this is simply timing. According to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15,
Rom 5:13, and Gal 3:17, the laws of God-- especially His codified rules and
regulations --are not enforced ex post facto, i.e. they aren't retroactive.

This appears extraneous to any idea of seminal guilt originally propagated by you

 

[Olde Tymer]

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Rom 5:12-21 explains why everyone unified with Adam has to die; but that's only half its
purpose. That passage also serves to explain why everyone unified with Christ will live
forever.

In a nutshell: were Jesus subpoenaed to appear before the great white throne event
depicted by Rev 20:11-15, he would walk away acquitted because God's son never
once committed a personal sin of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21, Heb
4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

In point of fact, it was impossible for God's son to commit a personal sin of his own.

● 1John 3:9 . . No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in
him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now; I haven't a clue how God pulls this off without cooking the books: but in a manner
similar to how He burdened everyone in Adam with his fault, God has a way to credit
everyone in Christ with his innocence.

There's a number of men here and there going about identifying themselves as women
so they can compete with women in women's sports. Of course they are not really
women, i.e. they're women in accord with culture rather than in accord with nature. Well;
in a manner of speaking, folks unified with Christ have a God-given mandate to identify
with His son as 100% perfectly sinless creatures though of course on a personal level
they are definitely not so.

● 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is
not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to
cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a
liar, and his word is not in us.

FAQ: How can sinners unified with Christ be credited with his righteousness when the
Bible says otherwise? For example:

"The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of
the wicked will be charged against him." (Ezek 18:20)

REPLY: The secret to this is simply timing. According to Deut 5:2-4, Rom 4:15, Rom
5:13, and Gal 3:17; the laws of God-- especially His codified rules and regulations --are
not enforced ex post facto, viz: they aren't retroactive.

This is especially applicable to Christ because he was designated, and scheduled, to
atone for the sins of the world before the world existed. (1Pet 1:18-21 & Rev 13:8)

Also: everyone who would eventually unify with Christ was foreseen and tagged very
early-on; many, many years before the prophets. (Rom 8:29-30 & Eph 1:4-5)

FAQ: I am interested in unifying with Christ so I can become accredited with his
innocence. How do I go about this?

REPLY: I suggest folks begin by opening a line of forthright communication with God
because according to 2Cor 5:19-21 He's been waiting to hear from you.

Find some privacy, anywhere will do. Cover your face with your hands-- it will give you a
sense of connection --and in your own words; tell God you haven't measured up to His
expectations and are pretty sure you never will. Then tell God you would like to take
advantage of His son's death as an atonement to protect yourself from retribution.
_

 

[TedT]

The reality is: Adam's disobedience isn't inherited, rather, it's merited. According to
Rom 5:12-21 Adam's entire posterity was there with him in real time as joint
principals in the act so that complicity doesn't take place for each in his own time,
rather; it took place for everyone all at once in real time.

By what sense of righteous and loving justice did GOD decided that all the progeny of Adam must suffer and die due to his sin without any choice to sin for themselves???

Who cares if we are created as sinners due to an inheritance or a so called merit?? What merit???

The whole idea that we become sinners without any willingness by ourselves to rebel against HIM or HIS commands is patently wrong and must be revised.

No definition of sinfulness was ever transferred to another; a person can only be judged to be a sinner by their free will decision to rebel against GOD or HIS commands because without any mens rea, the intent to do evil, no judgment of guilt can be applied.

 

[TomL]

By what sense of righteous and loving justice did GOD decided that all the progeny of Adam must suffer and die due to his sin without any choice to sin for themselves???

Who cares if we are created as sinners due to an inheritance or a so called merit?? What merit???

The whole idea that we become sinners without any willingness by ourselves to rebel against HIM or HIS commands is patently wrong and must be revised.

No definition of sinfulness was ever transferred to another; a person can only be judged to be a sinner by their free will decision to rebel against GOD or HIS commands because without any mens rea, the intent to do evil, no judgment of guilt can be applied.

Indeed

1. Spiritual consequences of sin cannot be transmitted from father to son but only falls on the one who committed the act: Ezek 18:1-4; 18-20; Jer 32:29-30

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

 

[Olde Tymer]

.

By what sense of righteous and loving justice did GOD decided that all the progeny of Adam
must suffer and die due to his sin without any choice to sin for themselves??? The whole idea
that we become sinners without any willingness by ourselves to rebel against HIM or HIS
commands is patently wrong and must be revised.

"And Jehovah God said: The man has now become like one of us, knowing good
and evil." (Gen 3:22)

When Adam took it upon himself to taste a fruit that he was fully aware was
prohibited for human consumption; he became a tin God, viz: Adam became his
own guiding light, so to speak; and seeing as how his entire posterity was judged
as being there with him in the act, then they too each became demonic in their
thinking.

Consequently these two lights-- the real God and the tin God --have been butting
heads ever since over matters relative to good and evil.

"The natural mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do
so. Those controlled by nature cannot please God." (Rom 8:7-8)
_

 

[TomL]

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"And Jehovah God said: The man has now become like one of us, knowing good
and evil." (Gen 3:22)

When Adam took it upon himself to taste a fruit that he was fully aware was
prohibited for human consumption; he became a tin God, viz: Adam became his
own guiding light, so to speak; and seeing as how his entire posterity was judged
as being there with him in the act, then they too each became demonic in their
thinking.

Um that is an assumption contrary to

Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19–20 (KJV 1900) — 19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God has repeatedly said, “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deut. 24:16; 2 Ki 14:6; 2 Chron. 25:4). “For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the soul that commit them shall be cut off from among their people” (Lev. 18:29).

 

[Olde Tymer]

.
Some elements of Christianity cause certain folks a bit of chafing; for example:

I'm basically a yellow-bellied kind of guy. Although I was a paratrooper with the
101st Airborne division from Mar 1962 to Aug 1964, my enlistment was during a
time of mostly peace when soldiering was more like scouting than killing.

I'm pretty certain that any "valor" I might've had at the time would've succumbed
to blind panic had the Army taken me to Viet Nam before I got out. So; when I
found out that Jesus was willing to take a fall for me I jumped at the chance-- no
hesitation.

Now, I've known some really stand-up guys, both in and out of the Army, who
would be utterly disgusted with me for taking a coward's way out of retribution
because not on your life would they pass the buck like I did. If there's hell to pay;
they'll be paying it themselves-- their choice --because in their mind's eye; death
without honor goes against the grain, so to speak.

It's ironic that strong men and women determined to stand on their own two feet
before God are fools, whereas chicken-livered weaklings like myself, who've traded
our dignity for the safety of the cross, are wise.
_

 

[TomL]

.
Some elements of Christianity cause certain folks a bit of chafing; for example:

I'm basically a yellow-bellied kind of guy. Although I was a paratrooper with the
101st Airborne division from Mar 1962 to Aug 1964, my enlistment was during a
time of mostly peace when soldiering was more like scouting than killing.

I'm pretty certain that any "valor" I might've had at the time would've succumbed
to blind panic had the Army taken me to Viet Nam before I got out. So; when I
found out that Jesus was willing to take a fall for me I jumped at the chance-- no
hesitation.

Now, I've known some really stand-up guys, both in and out of the Army, who
would be utterly disgusted with me for taking a coward's way out of retribution
because not on your life would they pass the buck like I did. If there's hell to pay;
they'll be paying it themselves-- their choice --because in their mind's eye; death
without honor goes against the grain, so to speak.

It's ironic that strong men and women determined to stand on their own two feet
before God are fools, whereas chicken-livered weaklings like myself, who've traded
our dignity for the safety of the cross, are wise.
_

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