Transmitting The Fallen Nature

[synergy]

Jesus is both fully God and fully man. During the Incarnation He functioned solely as a man.

False. No man can be incarnated unless he has preexisted. That is an impossibility for any man. Only if you believe in the preexistance if souls then your statement does have some merit. Do you believe in the preexistence of souls?

While our sins were being born by Christ He was cut off from fellowship, forsaken.

The Holy Spirit does not forsake us in times of troubles so why should the Holy Spirit do that to Jesus? The Holy Spirit doesn't practice fair weather "withdraw fellowshipping" at the time He is most needed.

Jesus Himself said He was forsaken. Why won't you believe what He said?

That was Jesus' human side crying out in similar fashion to all the other times that Jesus expressed human emotions throughout his life on Earth.

 

[civic]

Jesus is both fully God and fully man. During the Incarnation He functioned solely as a man. While our sins were being born by Christ He was cut off from fellowship, forsaken.

Jesus Himself said He was forsaken. Why won't you believe what He said?

I have completely debunked your unbiblical ideas here in this thread which both you and @GeneZ ignored. See posts 614-618 in this thread.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/transmitting-the-fallen-nature.1078/page-31#post-43603

 

[civic]

Jesus is both fully God and fully man. During the Incarnation He functioned solely as a man.

I will give you a few below that disproves He functioned only as a man.

1- He forgave sin, only God can forgive a man of their sins
2- He said to believe in Me to have salvation- only God can save
3- He said eternal life is found in Him- Only God can give eternal life
4- He had power over satan,demons, sea, wind, sickness, disease, the dead etc..... only God has the power over them
5- He was worshiped by men and angels- only God is to be worshiped.

I could list a few dozen more examples but this is enough to suffice. You are espousing the kenosis heresy. That teaches Jesus was only a man during His earthly life.

hope this helps !!!

 

[synergy]

When did Jesus say the work of Atonement on the Cross was "finished?"

After he died physically?

Or, before he died physically?

Its important to get this detail straight if you are going to even know what death Jesus experienced saved us...

Did he come back after three days and then tell everyone?.... "It is Finished!"

No. Jesus said that the atonement was completed before he died physically!​

​

​

After this..​

Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, ​

that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” ​

​

Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge ​

with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. ​

​

So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” ​

And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit."​

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John 19:28-30​

​

The meaning of the Greek word "tetelestai" appears in a tense that means...
Something was just finished in the past, that results in remaining to be finished forever.

Meaning there was nothing left to be accomplished by Jesus that needed for securing for us atonement for our sins!

grace and peace ..............

You're so focused on sins that you forget that there is more to our salvation than sins. Sure, our sins were nailed to the Cross and that was finished but Jesus' work did not stop there. Death still needed to be slayed. Our regeneration still needed to be accomplished. And on and on... There is no salvation unless they were accomplished also.

You possess a forensic view of salvation that blinds you to the full picture of how we are saved. That explains how you can easily be duped into believing that the Holy Spirit practices fair weather "withdraw fellowshipping".

 

[civic]

I notice how its always sounding like something different each time.
Simply because you can not yet grasp what it really is.

Truthfully.. I do not want to tell you what it is..

Because I sense possibly you wanting to tear it apart no matter how good it may really be.
For, I know even Paul was attacked by those who hated.

I have not yet been able to determine if what motivates you is jealousy, or not.
Why did I say that?

I used to be friends with a teacher at a Bible college that went on to become a PhD at a seminary.
He graduating top of his class.
He then changed and became a monster...
After adjusting to that shock, I realized that the spiritual warfare we are in shows no mercy.
Especially when refusing painful discipline to be humbled (correctable) before God.

All must be led of the Spirit *personally* to finding what we need.
For only God truly knows what our heart really desires.
We all will end up finding from God what it is HE KNOWS we really desire.
Be it divine good, or evil.

Telling someone antagonistic about what we see is good?
May be someone who seeks evil, thinking his evil is good.
When there is antagonism?... It is inviting trouble that can be avoided.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3​

Gathering others around that approve our teaching with thumbs up is no guarantee from God that we have his approval.
It might only guarantee we have a mutual admiration society when its not based upon having an ever growing knowledge
base of sound doctrinal teachings.

God will provide according to the true desires of one's heart.
I avoid answering certain questions to those showing overt antagonism.
For Jesus warned that we should keep those pearls in our pocket.

Clinging to our old ways of winning in the spiritual life will keep us from truly winning.
God must check us when we get competitive. He wants to work in His transformation
that only can come from receiving an always available supply of sound doctrinal teachings.

To think God can not do that in our day and age?
Is to think God can not do what He has set as His top priority for all believers.

Yes... its hard to find.

For the time will come when they will not put up with sound doctrine.​

Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number​

of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear." 2 Tim 4:3​

​

​

In Christ ..........​

What motivates me is the truth regarding God. Theology is the study of God. You misunderstand the Tri-Unity of God at the core of Theology. When one is wrong about God and His character/nature/attributes then it flows downwards into ones beliefs which will also be wrong. So from the Tri-Unity of God which you misunderstand it has effected your beliefs with the Person and work of Jesus Christ who has at all times been fully God 24/7 and has never been separated from the Father and Holy Spirit for even a millisecond. You also misunderstand God and sin which I have also demonstrated from Scripture. You have also misunderstood the atonement. As we see when one is wrong about God it effects the rest of their beliefs/theology in many different areas.

See posts 614-618 in this thread where I expose all the misunderstandings in Christendom.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

You're so focused on sins that you forget that there is more to our salvation than sins. Sure, our sins were nailed to the Cross and that was finished but Jesus' work did not stop there. Death still needed to be slayed. Our regeneration still needed to be accomplished. And on and on... There is no salvation unless they were accomplished also.

You possess a forensic view of salvation that blinds you to the full picture of how we are saved. That explains how you can easily be duped into believing that the Holy Spirit practices fair weather "withdraw fellowshipping".

The Son coudn't of became human ( Incarnation ) with their view of sin. He was born from a sinful mother, raised by sinful parents, lived among a sinful people, rejected by sinners, persecuted by sinners, killed by sinners and eventually as their Savior died for their sins.

 

[civic]

You're so focused on sins that you forget that there is more to our salvation than sins. Sure, our sins were nailed to the Cross and that was finished but Jesus' work did not stop there. Death still needed to be slayed. Our regeneration still needed to be accomplished. And on and on... There is no salvation unless they were accomplished also.

You possess a forensic view of salvation that blinds you to the full picture of how we are saved. That explains how you can easily be duped into believing that the Holy Spirit practices fair weather "withdraw fellowshipping".

I use to believe like them for decades and teach this stuff to people. I'm so glad God opened my mind/heart to the truth about the atonement, sin, Tri-Unity of God etc.....

 

[synergy]

The Son coudn't of became human ( Incarnation ) with their view of sin. He was born from a sinful mother, raised by sinful parents, lived among a sinful people, rejected by sinners, persecuted by sinners, killed by sinners and eventually as their Savior died for their sins.

They have one heresy stacked upon another.
The biggest heresy I see is their Kenotic Heresy.
It mindlessly attacks the Incarnation.
That's because it is impossible for a solely human being to be incarnated because no solely human being preexists.
They end up projecting sin on everyone to where everyone is viewed forensically sinful, even Jesus' human nature, as you pointed out.
They need to forsake their heresies.

 

[civic]

They have one heresy stacked upon another.
The biggest heresy I see is their Kenotic Heresy.
It mindlessly attacks the Incarnation.
That's because it is impossible for a solely human being to be incarnated because no solely human being preexists.
They end up projecting sin on everyone to where everyone is viewed forensically sinful, even Jesus' human nature, as you pointed out.

Yes and lets add to their misunderstandings ( dare I say heresies) they deny the Divine Son's Impeccability. Its a complete misunderstanding of the 2 natures in Christ. Peccability and Kenosis go hand in hand together. The one heresy goes together with the other. They build upon each other. So we see its another denial of the Tri-Unity of God at its core. If you get the Trinity right then you must deny kenosis and peccability. The Sons Divine nature/attributes never changed otherwise one is also denying the Immutability of God. These all go together as One.

 

[civic]

When one doesn't understand that Jesus is a Divine Person, the 2nd Person of the Trinity you get all kinds of heretical beliefs about Jesus. Nestorianism, Kenosis, Peccability, mutability, false views on the atonement, sin and many others creep into ones doctrines. We see that demonstrated just in this particular thread with many "christians" .

 

[civic]

These are Gods Attributes apart from creation. Who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son always has these just like the Father and Holy Spirit always have them. These attributes never change or vary in any way, shape or form. They are an eternal constant


1-Aseity- Self Sufficient
2-Eternal
3-Omnipresent
4-Omnipotent
5-Omniscient
6-Love
7-Holy
8-Immutable
9-Perichoresis
10-Plural as One, God is One- Unity within the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
11- Infinite
12- Transcendent
13- Humility
14- Good
15- Glorious

hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

The gorgeous body God made was



before
the
fall

You have often stated that you keep wishing to have a body like Adam and the woman had before the fall.
Yet.... The resurrection body you will receive will make Eve look dull and boring in comparison!

Their bodies consisted of the elements of what can perish, and, will perish in fire.

And it will come -- the day of the Lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens ​

with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, ​

and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up." 2 Peter 3:10 Young's Literal Translation​

The body you will receive will be just like His own glorious body. A body that can never perish!
As Eve had a body like that of Adam?
We too shall have a body just like that of the Lord's!

That is why... We are called in the Bible the "Bride of Christ!"


But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord
Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control,
will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21

I do not want a body like unfallen Adam had.
The Lord's body is infinitely superior in every way.

grace and peace......

​

 

[GeneZ]

These are Gods Attributes apart from creation. Who God is within His own Being as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son always has these just like the Father and Holy Spirit always have them. These attributes never change or vary in any way, shape or form. They are an eternal constant


1-Aseity- Self Sufficient
2-Eternal
3-Omnipresent
4-Omnipotent
5-Omniscient
6-Love
7-Holy
8-Immutable
9-Perichoresis
10-Plural as One, God is One- Unity within the Godhead of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit
11- Infinite
12- Transcendent
13- Humility
14- Good
15- Glorious

hope this helps !!!

That's only the Deity side of the two natures of Christ.

 

[civic]

That's only the Deity side of the two natures of Christ.

And they never change or cease to exist for even a millisecond. They are immutable. Now apply that to the Eternal Son. You have the Son different from both the Father and Holy Spirit. That is what is known as the Kenosis heresy

hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

Jesus Himself said He was forsaken. Why won't you believe what He said?

Because of some dogma he has accepted that he sees and noble and honorable to cling to no matter what others may tell him..

 

[GeneZ]

And they never change or cease to exist for even a millisecond. They are immutable. Now apply that to the Eternal Son. You have the Son different from both the Father and Holy Spirit. That is what is known as the Kenosis heresy

hope this helps !!!

A chameleon changes colors. Its a trait of a chameleon that never changes. Its immutable in regards to the nature of a chameleon.

Jesus never changed from the ability to do what He performed when He made himself to become as a man.
Its immutable. He still has the same ability today.

And, He had that ability when in His mind He created your soul.
That is how God was able to create you without interfering with your free will.
That is why all things created had to be created THROUGH Him.



.

 

[civic]

Because of some dogma he has accepted that he sees and noble and honorable to cling to no matter what others may tell him..

Since when does asking a question make the question a reality ?

If I ask God where are you ?

Does that mean God is not here ?

Next……….

 

[civic]

A chameleon changes colors. Its a trait of a chameleon that never changes. Its immutable in regards to the nature of a chameleon.

Jesus never changed from the ability to do what He performed when He made himself to become as a man.
Its immutable. He still has the same ability today.

And, He had that ability when in His mind He created your soul.
That is how God was able to create you without interfering with your free will.
That is why all things created had to be created THROUGH Him.



.

Nope you are equivocating as those are the very nature and characteristics of a chameleon. The chameleon doesn’t change just the color of its skin changes color.

You have Jesus Divine nature changing at the Incarnation, ministry and the crucifixion.

Terrible analogy lol

 

[civic]

What you are asking should not matter if Jesus were only God in function.

If Jesus were ALL God? As your Trinity hypothesis claimed? Its would not matter about the Cup.

If Jesus were only all God, and not also fully man? The Cup of suffering would not have been brought up.

His humanity had to face unspeakable anguish of coming in contact with our sins... and losing fellowship
with the Father and Holy Spirit.

Not only was he experience utter disgust to have to have the sins of the world poured on Him..
He had to experience the terror of the withdrawal of the Father and Holy Spirit's fellowship.
Both the Father and Holy Spirit needed to withdraw in the realm of having any contact with sin.
His anguish in the Garden was so great that His sweat became like drops of blood falling to the ground. Lk 22:44

My God (Father) My God (Holy Spirit)... why have you forsaken me?

As far as Jesus own Deity?

I believe what took place was as when a believer grieves the Spirit.. The Spirit cuts off contact in fellowship, but remains indwelling.
Likewise.. In regards to His own Deity. His own Deity remained within Him, but cut off fellowship with His soul.

During His being forsaken on the Cross the only thing Jesus possessed to keep Him going was knowing the Word of God.
Scripture thought to give Him the mental stability needed to endure to the end.

That end being? Took place when having the very last sin poured on Him, and no more to pour.

Each of our sins pierced His soul. But, since His soul never sinned? His soul could not be condemned by God for having contact
with our sins. Not condemned for what would have condemned us of whom if God imputed the penalty for personal sins.
Instead, Jesus who knew no sin of His own, bore our sins, and was able to endure and survive while God took those sins to their deaths
on the Cross.

That's all I have to share at this point....

God be my Judge.

You espouse the same heresy as the heretic Kenneth Copeland that Jesus died spiritually and suffered hell for 3 days. Jesus did not die spiritually. That is impossible for one and secondly it’s not found in scripture. He died physically. Upon His physical death He said " Father into thy hands I commit my spirit. "

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24 For he has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

John 16:32 "A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."

Hebrews 5:7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Jesus' promise to the thief on the cross that today you will be with Me in Paradise reaffirms Jesus went to be with the Father and not suffer in hell as some teach.

Jesus bearing God's “cup of wrath” and being despised and forsaken by the Father and Him turning His back on the Son is not found in Scripture.


hope this helps !!!

 

[GeneZ]

Nope you are equivocating as those are the very nature and characteristics of a chameleon. The chameleon doesn’t change just the color of its skin changes color.

You have Jesus Divine nature changing at the Incarnation, ministry and the crucifixion.

Terrible analogy lol

You are blanking out on his human nature!!!!!!!!!

You want nothing to do with it.

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, ​

I will make My dwelling among you, and My soul will not reject you.'​

I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12​

That speaks of the Lord Jesus Christ during the Millennium. The Jews were waiting for God to set up his kingdom on earth.
The Lord God of Israel is God having also a Soul! Humanity is expressed through the Son.

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16​

God is not impatient. The Lord God of Israel expressed impatience. Men could relate to that!

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, ​

and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5​

People would just disappear with no reason given, if God did not express His intent by means of having a Soul that man can relate to.

If the Son of God had no Soul as his second nature things around us would happen without man being able to make sense of it.
The Son is God talking to us on our level in a manner we are able to relate to.

Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? ​

Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? John 14:9​

Jesus is God's human interpretation of God for humans to be made able to relate to God in a way man will understand.

Jesus by means of being both fully God and fully soul/human is able to perfectly exegete the Father to us.
God without having His Soul communicating to us would be incomprehensible and not able to be perceived.




Back in the 90's an excellent pastor who was always studying from the Greek and Hebrew taught me something unusual about John 1:18.
John uses a Greek word that is commanded of good pastors to be exegeting the Scriptures.

Later I found what he was saying to me when reading the Amplified Bible translation.

The following are two renderings of Joihn1:18.

First one is taken from a typical mainstream English translation.
The second is what the Greek emphasis is citing found the Amplified Bible.

​

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship ​

with the Father, has made him known. " John 1:18 (NIV)​

​

The Amplified Bible better expresses the Greek meaning and intent.

[He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has ​

made Him known]. John 1:18 (Amplified Bible)​

Without Jesus having a fully human soul to interpret God to us?
We would have no way to properly perceive God!

God would remain incomprehensible....

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship ​

with the Father, has made him known. " John 1:18 (NIV)​

​

​

grace and peace ......................