Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?

Roman 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
When you read these Hebrew Scriptures with a Gentile mindset you will come up with teaching that is foreign to the Word of God.
The Hebrew Scripture authored by Hebrew men is given to the Hebrew people. From Genesis to Revelation is a record of the Hebrew people, their culture, their religion, and their God. True Biblical Christianity is moored to the Hebrew religion in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. Read the Hebrew Scripture with a Hebrew mindset - if you can - and come to the knowledge of then truth. I believe we will have to wait for the two witnesses of Revelation 11 whose prophecies will set the record straight.

How can you claim Gentiles are included in the New Covenant established by Christ with the House of Israel and the House of Judah? Jeremiah 31:31-34 says nothing of Gentiles in this covenant. God clearly says "I will establish me covenant with the House of Israel and the House of Judah - and neither of them are Gentile.
 
What kind of double mindedness is that?
To curse me of being ignorant and then to "bless" me in peace? There is no peace when men mutilate the Holy Word of God for doctrines and traditions of men.
There is no double mindedness. I call strikes and balls!
Your foolishness really amazes me. But I do have a low tolerance
for foolishness. Read Proverbs if you want to know more about
fools and foolishness!
Shalom
 
@jeremiah1five
I believe we will have to wait for the two witnesses of Revelation 11 whose prophecies will set the record straight.
Well now, that's your problem, they are here "NOW" witnessing to you, and you are rejecting their message!

Revelation 11:3​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Revelation 1:20​

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Romans 11:24​

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

The two witnesses of Revelation eleven are the very elect Jews and Gentiles of the churches of God throughout this world! They are not two individuals coming during a suppose seven year tribulation period, etc.

Why are you rejecting their biblical testimony? Jeremiah, you have some truth mixed with a lot of errors. That's not to say, those speaking to you here are free from errors, because they are not.
 
@jeremiah1five

Well now, that's your problem, they are here "NOW" witnessing to you, and you are rejecting their message!

Revelation 11:3​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Revelation 1:20​

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Romans 11:24​

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

The two witnesses of Revelation eleven are the very elect Jews and Gentiles of the churches of God throughout this world! They are not two individuals coming during a suppose seven year tribulation period, etc.

Why are you rejecting their biblical testimony? Jeremiah, you have some truth mixed with a lot of errors. That's not to say, those speaking to you here are free from errors, because they are not.
Commentary on Revelation 11:3-12
These two witnesses testify about Yeshua, spread his Good News among the Jewish people in Jerusalem, prophesy,
and perform miracles while enjoying God's protection (vv. 5-6). Then the beast from the Abyss kills them (v. 7).
Their bodies lie in the main street of Jerusalem for three and a half days (vv. 8-9), after which they rise from death
and go up to heaven (vv. 11-12).

Revelation 1:20 CJB
Here is the secret meaning of the seven stars you saw in my right hand, and of the seven gold menorahs: the seven
stars are the angels of the seven Messianic communities, and the seven menorahs are the seven Messianic communities.

Shabbat Shalom
 
Sorry for the interruption but…

Here’s my understanding of the meaning of predestination.

Now let’s really listen to what the Lord told the soon-to-become a prophet for the LORD; his name was Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (KJV) 4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

ahhhh. . . . s e l a h
 
Sorry for the interruption but…

Here’s my understanding of the meaning of predestination.

Now let’s really listen to what the Lord told the soon-to-become a prophet for the LORD; his name was Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 (KJV) 4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

ahhhh. . . . s e l a h

Yeppers. So correct.

Jeremiah was one of the ones chosen for a purpose of prophesy.

I have always maintained that there were those who were chosen... predestined... to do the thing God needed them to do, that did not include all of mankind for we all were not called to a Holy mission.
 
Abraham was a Gentile who was chosen by God to be the ancestor of the Jewish people.

The term Jew is a shortened form of the word Judah, which was the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the tribe of David and of Jesus (Matthew 1:1). Judah was also the name of the southern half of the kingdom of Israel when it split into two parts (1 Kings 12), because it was dominated by the large tribe of Judah. The first time the word Jew is used in the Bible is during the exile (2 Kings 25:25), and may have been a term coined by the Babylonians or Persians to refer to the people in their midst who had come from the kingdom of Judah. By New Testament times, Jew was a common term, and it has remained in usage unto this day. Obviously, Abraham was never referred to by this term.

The term Gentile is simply from the Latin word for “nation.” When the term Gentiles is used in Scripture, it means “the nations.” If a person is a Gentile, he or she is a member of one of the many nations in the world. When Jew and Gentile are juxtaposed, the contrast is between one who is a member of God’s chosen nation and one who is a member of one of the hundreds of other nations or ethnic groups not chosen for special blessing in the way that Israel was. In this context, Gentile simply means “not Jewish.”

Abraham started out as a member of one of the many nations or ethnic groups that were in existence at the time. (Of course, these are somewhat artificial distinctions, because all people came from Adam and Eve, and all people are related if the genealogy is traced back far enough. However, after Babel, people started to segregate into smaller groups and develop into distinctive ethnic groups, clans, and nations.) Abraham was living in Ur of the Chaldeans. While he was there, God called him:

“The Lord had said to Abram, ‘Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’” (Genesis 12:1–3).

At that point, Abraham was called and set apart for God’s purposes. He left his native country and people behind. His descendants would become the great nation of Israel, God’s chosen people, but the line had not been narrowed down yet. Abraham had several sons: Isaac, by his wife Sarah; Ishmael, by a slave of Sarah; and other sons with another wife after Sarah died. However, it was only Isaac who was the chosen one. Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau, and only Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel) was the chosen one. All of Jacob’s 12 sons were included as patriarchs in the nation of Israel and became the basis for the 12 tribes. It was at this point that the line had been finally set; however, the wives of Jacob’s sons were still from outside the family.

With the next generation of Jacob’s grandchildren, the descendants of Jacob became a distinct people group, and they were distinguished from the Egyptians among whom they were living as having all descended from one man named Israel. By the time of Exodus 1, they were recognized as a distinct nation.

Technically, no one was called a “Jew” before the exile; however, the people who became known as Jews were a distinct ethnic group by the time of Exodus 1. They were a distinct clan by the time of Jacob and his sons. Abraham was a Gentile, that is, a member of one of the many nations that had developed by his time. The Jews came from Abraham because he was chosen by God from among the nations to be the origin of a new nation. The Jews of Jesus’ day looked to Abraham (not Jacob/Israel) as the head of their race (see Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8; John 8:39; Acts 13:26; Galatians 3:7). If one is thinking in these terms, it would not be wrong to think of Abraham as “the first Jew,” although that’s not technically correct.got?

hope this helps !!!
How funny. I have never thought about the origin of the word gentile.
 
There is no double mindedness. I call strikes and balls!
Your foolishness really amazes me. But I do have a low tolerance
for foolishness. Read Proverbs if you want to know more about
fools and foolishness!
Shalom
I have no patience for a fool.
Fools ignore danger.

22 but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22.
 
@jeremiah1five

Well now, that's your problem, they are here "NOW" witnessing to you, and you are rejecting their message!

Revelation 11:3​

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Revelation 1:20​

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.”

Romans 11:24​

“For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?”

The two witnesses of Revelation eleven are the very elect Jews and Gentiles of the churches of God throughout this world! They are not two individuals coming during a suppose seven year tribulation period, etc.

Why are you rejecting their biblical testimony? Jeremiah, you have some truth mixed with a lot of errors. That's not to say, those speaking to you here are free from errors, because they are not.
Until someone show me a passage in the Hebrew Scripture where God made a salvation covenant with Gentiles they are all lost. There is a reason God divided the peoples of the world through circumcision. It is because while man performs one, God performs the other. When we are all laid bare naked the truth comes out.
When these two witnesses appear it will be their authority backed up with works that cause all Gentiles to surround Israel and attack them. And I suppose leading the charge will be so-called Gentile Christians.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

This is a work of God, and it is marvelous in our sight.
 
I have no patience for a fool.
Fools ignore danger.

22 but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:22.
I can only take so much biblical ignorance stupidity and foolishness. Besides I'm tired of casting my pearls before swine.
You will be put on ignore. Take your heresy somewhere else maybe another fool will give you an audience!
 
I can only take so much biblical ignorance stupidity and foolishness. Besides I'm tired of casting my pearls before swine.
You will be put on ignore. Take your heresy somewhere else maybe another fool will give you an audience!
Try this:

Just don't stop by to say anything.

Let others "think" you wise.
 
Until someone show me a passage in the Hebrew Scripture where God made a salvation covenant with Gentiles they are all lost.

Then why are you here? To rub it in because, unlike @David Koberstein you have zero intentions of correcting or educating anyone.

You certainly treat Gentiles as if we were demons. So I repeat.... why are you here?

You have provided zero scripture that says this..... "Gentiles they are all lost."

Yet that is your belief with out proof.

Where is your proof?

After all,

אתה שייך לשטן אביך ואתה רוצה להגשים את רצונותיו של אביך

Since you are not a Gentile I assume you can read this.... it is not from AI
There is a reason God divided the peoples of the world through circumcision. It is because while man performs one, God performs the other. When we are all laid bare naked the truth comes out.
When these two witnesses appear it will be their authority backed up with works that cause all Gentiles to surround Israel and attack them. And I suppose leading the charge will be so-called Gentile Christians.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

This is a work of God, and it is marvelous in our sight.
 
Then why are you here? To rub it in because, unlike @David Koberstein you have zero intentions of correcting or educating anyone.
I am not a teacher. That is NOT my calling.
You certainly treat Gentiles as if we were demons. So I repeat.... why are you here?
God treats them as nothing. And to God they are NOTHING and VANITY.

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

God promised Abraham and his seed their own land. When Christ returns, He gives them that land and there will be NO GENTILES living in that land. They will all live outside the Promised Land. And what is their destiny?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.

It doesn't end well for non-Hebrew Gentiles.
You have provided zero scripture that says this..... "Gentiles they are all lost."

Yet that is your belief with out proof.

Where is your proof?

After all,

אתה שייך לשטן אביך ואתה רוצה להגשים את רצונותיו של אביך

Since you are not a Gentile I assume you can read this.... it is not from AI
I grew up presuming I am Gentile (non-Hebrew.) But God showed me that there is no covenant in Scripture made between God and Gentiles. There is also no promise God made to Gentiles that they will receive the Holy Spirit. Joel does make a promise to Israel that God will give THEM His Spirit, but NOT to Gentiles.
Knowing these two things and realizing back in 1977 I became born-again the only conclusion I can reach is that there is at least ONE Hebrew parent in my ancestry. Given that my mother's maiden name originated centuries ago in Spain in a Jewish grotto, does cause me to wonder. But the above is true. The only way for me - a presumed Gentile - to have the Holy Spirit of Promise in my born-again life is that there MUST be a Hebrew parent in my family line.

God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with Abram's Hebrew seed.
Then, God scattered His people AMONG Gentiles and Gentiles on a larger scale mixed with the twelve tribes and here we are today - so-called Gentiles claiming Christ. But this says otherwise:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

The only people under the Law is the twelve tribes of Israel (Abraham's seed.)
 
I am not a teacher. That is NOT my calling.

God treats them as nothing. And to God they are NOTHING and VANITY.

17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.

God promised Abraham and his seed their own land. When Christ returns, He gives them that land and there will be NO GENTILES living in that land. They will all live outside the Promised Land. And what is their destiny?

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:7–9.

It doesn't end well for non-Hebrew Gentiles.

I grew up presuming I am Gentile (non-Hebrew.) But God showed me that there is no covenant in Scripture made between God and Gentiles. There is also no promise God made to Gentiles that they will receive the Holy Spirit. Joel does make a promise to Israel that God will give THEM His Spirit, but NOT to Gentiles.
Knowing these two things and realizing back in 1977 I became born-again the only conclusion I can reach is that there is at least ONE Hebrew parent in my ancestry.
Alrighty then... we are getting somewhere.

You grew up I grew up presuming I am Gentile (non-Hebrew.)

I might also. I say this because according to my 3 DNA tests I have no blood in me.... However, I can guarantee you that I am fully spirit born again, and I am fully Holy Spirit filled.

So I will assume my blood is there also... just like you are assuming with no benefits of testing.

And since you are spirit filled, tell us how any experience with the spirit has been for you.

Given that my mother's maiden name originated centuries ago in Spain in a Jewish grotto, does cause me to wonder. But the above is true. The only way for me - a presumed Gentile - to have the Holy Spirit of Promise in my born-again life is that there MUST be a Hebrew parent in my family line.

God made covenant with Abram the Hebrew and with Abram's Hebrew seed.
Then, God scattered His people AMONG Gentiles and Gentiles on a larger scale mixed with the twelve tribes and here we are today - so-called Gentiles claiming Christ. But this says otherwise:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Galatians 4:4–5.

The only people under the Law is the twelve tribes of Israel (Abraham's seed.)
 
Alrighty then... we are getting somewhere.

You grew up I grew up presuming I am Gentile (non-Hebrew.)

I might also. I say this because according to my 3 DNA tests I have no blood in me.... However, I can guarantee you that I am fully spirit born again, and I am fully Holy Spirit filled.
Vampire?
So I will assume my blood is there also... just like you are assuming with no benefits of testing.

And since you are spirit filled, tell us how any experience with the spirit has been for you.
I have come across individuals who question whether the are born-again.
My response to help them in finding out is this:
Anyone who claims to be born-again of the Spirit....you will KNOW it!

It is a natural response a person experiences when the Almighty makes His Presence known. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. You WILL know when God shows up!

Me? I actually felt His Presence, and in the same moment experienced my sinfulness with the burden of sin being sensed along with an overwhelming sense of His love and His forgiveness. I literally walked around with a light shining in my face. Soon after, while speaking to my mother, she looked at me quizzically and asked me "What's wrong with your face? Your face is shining."

I wake up every morning and my prayers took on a deeper and deeply profound nature.

I spoke in tongues for the first time while in prayer. Many times. One time it was interpreted with Scripture.

Years later I heard the voice of God and words He spoke to me was not through my ears, although my ears participated, but His Word reverberated throughout my being. It was as though His Word was coming out of me and at me at the same time. It enveloped me, and there was no doubting God has visited me where I 'stood.' And what He told me is for me only.

In time prophecy was spoken over me in the congregation which revealed my call, my place in the body, and my spiritual gifts to accomplish my call. Reading and studying Scripture was revelatory. My understanding of Scripture - which early on was assisted by theology books, and commentaries was my instruction. In time I was able to study under the anointing and questions would develop in my mind over many points in the theology books I have read and still in time the Lord would reveal things to me of which I have posted. My love for God's Word went deeper. I used to study for over twelve hours, so much and undisturbed that hot tears would fall down my cheeks.

This month I observed forty-eight years with the Lord.
Independence day(s) in more ways than one.
 
Werewolf.
I have come across individuals who question whether the are born-again.
My response to help them in finding out is this:
Anyone who claims to be born-again of the Spirit....you will KNOW it!

It is a natural response a person experiences when the Almighty makes His Presence known. No flesh shall glory in His Presence. You WILL
know when God shows up!

Very true.
Me? I actually felt His Presence,

I did also.
and in the same moment experienced my sinfulness with the burden of sin being sensed

I understand as did I when I got the conviction of the Holy Spirit that no one could ever doubt.
along with an overwhelming sense of His love and His forgiveness.

AND PATIENCE>
I literally walked around with a light shining in my face. Soon after, while speaking to my mother, she looked at me quizzically and asked me "What's wrong with your face? Your face is shining."

I wake up every morning and my prayers took on a deeper and deeply profound nature.

I spoke in tongues for the first time while in prayer. Many times. One time it was interpreted with Scripture.

I used to almost daily. Funny that,,,, the forum ( all of them) seem to be so down on that. Twice I had personal confirmation.
Once , as it seemed like I was praying or speaking in tongues it seemed quite repetitious to me, and I was not around anyone who could interpret. so I put as it sounded into the computer and it came back as a mideastern language.
Then, a few years later I was speaking a different tongue. It was fact because I could never roll my Rs. Had trouble keeping the grades up in high school French because of that. And when my mother died and my dad remarried a lady of Italian decent
she decided we all needed to speak Italian, just in case we got to Italy (never did) and again, I could not roll my Rs, so imagine the day I was speaking in tongues and just as easy and fluidly cam those beautiful rolled Rs. It was the onlt time, and to this day my tongue defies me that way.
Years later I heard the voice of God and words He spoke to me was not through my ears, although my ears participated, but His Word reverberated throughout my being.
This is truly great for you.
It was as though His Word was coming out of me and at me at the same time. It enveloped me, and there was no doubting God has visited me where I 'stood.' And what He told me is for me only.

As it should be. Only between you.
In time prophecy was spoken over me in the congregation which revealed my call, my place in the body, and my spiritual gifts to accomplish my call. Reading and studying Scripture was revelatory. My understanding of Scripture - which early on was assisted by theology books, and commentaries was my instruction. In time I was able to study under the anointing and questions would develop in my mind over many points in the theology books I have read and still in time the Lord would reveal things to me of which I have posted. My love for God's Word went deeper. I used to study for over twelve hours, so much and undisturbed that hot tears would fall down my cheeks.

This month I observed forty-eight years with the Lord.
Independence day(s) in more ways than one.
 
@jeremiah1five
I spoke in tongues for the first time while in prayer. Many times. One time it was interpreted with Scripture.
I've been in the faith for over fifty years and have never spoken is an unknown tongue, never. I have never given my flesh over to be used in any way, but have maintain control of my spirt, submitting myself to God's word as the only source of my faith.

Jeremiah, we have spoken many times over, and I truly believe you have been deceived and are living under a strong delusion, thinking that eternal life is in the blood line of Abraham, and not by the grace of God through Jesus' shed blood. I'm not saying you are not a child of God, that is not by call, but, I can tell you that you are deceived in thinking God is not visiting the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name sake, to join them with elect Jews, to make one holy spiritual temple in Jesus Christ.
 
@jeremiah1five

I've been in the faith for over fifty years and have never spoken is an unknown tongue, never. I have never given my flesh over to be used in any way, but have maintain control of my spirt, submitting myself to God's word as the only source of my faith.

Jeremiah, we have spoken many times over, and I truly believe you have been deceived and are living under a strong delusion, thinking that eternal life is in the blood line of Abraham, and not by the grace of God through Jesus' shed blood. I'm not saying you are not a child of God, that is not by call, but, I can tell you that you are deceived in thinking God is not visiting the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name sake, to join them with elect Jews, to make one holy spiritual temple in Jesus Christ.
I never have spoken in an unknown tongue either. I have hard enough time with English and Hebrew to add another unknown tongue. LOL
 
Back
Top Bottom