Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
the olive tree is Christ
The natural branches are Israel
God grafted on the unnatural branches, which are the gentiles.
Title: So You Think Predestination Started When and With Whom?
- Thread starter FreeInChrist
- Start date
The natural branches are Israel
God grafted on the unnatural branches, which are the gentiles.
David Koberstein
Active Member
By your statements you are definitely an antisemitic! You need to read and study the Hebrew Scriptures. The Church does not replace Israel as the apple of God's eyes.
Shalom
The Seed
1. The Seed of the Woman
Messiah would be human, not an angel, nor purely God as God.
2. The Seed of Abraham
Messiah would come from one specific part of humanity; He would be a Jew, not a Gentile.
3. The Seed of Judah.
Although there were twelve Jewish tribes, Messiah would come from one specific tribe, the tribe of Judah.
This requires Messiah come prior to the destruction of Jewish genealogical records in A.D. 70.
Although not as clearly stated in points above, there is a hint in Genesis 3:15 that Messiah would be born
of a virgin. He would be reckoned as the seed of the woman and not of a man.
Shalom
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I add nothing. You error in your interpretation of what I have said. And as I said it is my opinion meaning I am not claiming it is Biblical dogma.
I had said
"But rather then do that I am more concerned with what the supposed "Christians" really know or understand about what our heavenly Father has done and offered us." This statement does not say one word about a covenant, because this op is all about our Jewish brothers and Sisters and what God did for them.
The OP is strictly about the blood that coursed through Jesus' veins and going back descendant wise from that on both sides of his mother Mary and adopted father Joseph.
It is strictly about God's chosen... of which the Gentile were not thought of in those terms.
After all.. These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them, saying, “Do not go on a road to Gentiles, and do not enter a city of Samaritans;
I will keep my opinion as to why to myself... but suffice it to say that ... no, Ill let it go.
Adding to my opinion I will say.....
It is strictly about Jesus belonging to the tribe of Judah, fulfilling Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah coming from David's line.
Jesus’ tribal affiliation was significant for his messianic role, providing a framework for understanding his identity and mission. It connected him to Jewish expectations while also transcending them.
And I closed my OP
You do not read, you see a sentence and assume what is being said. You obviously believe that the Four Corners of the Holy Word stop before Mathew 1:1.
Would it surprise you to hear me say that unlike others, I do not believe that God predestined other then a select bunch to carry out what needed to be done on earth. That extends through the prophets and also the apostles and disciples and maybe a few others.
Would it surprise you to learn that while predestination is not in my vocabulary that Foreknowledge is.
Would it surprise you to learn that I firmly believe that God had His plan and it was being executed the moment he made
man in their image.
Would it surprise you to hear me say I am not certain, that until Jesus walked the earth, and was not able to gather all the lost sheep back to him that the gentile was even more then a passing thought.
He said he WAS SENT only for the lost Sheep of the house of Israel. He was alive and well when He said that and was walking the earth. This was not a prophetic declaration or some telling that came from from the writings in the book of Enoch.
Jesus WAS SENT for a purpose.
Now, I am not going to argue OR even debate my beliefs with someone that cannot see .
Others have chased me away from posting but this is MY thread. My opinion. AND FURTHER... NOTHING I SAID IN THE OP CAN YOU DISPROVE UNLESS YOU WILL BE PULLING OUT YOUR NWT , which is hog wash.
@David Koberstein
David, do not accuse me of being anti-Semite, just because I use scriptures written by those godly men who were by nature Jews.
David the "Jewish" apostles took the OT scriptures and applied them spiritually the body of Christ, which consist of Jews and Gentiles ~and, in this dispensation are mainly Gentiles, just as the OT were mainly Jews with a few exceptions. The thief here is not me and others who understand the scriptures but all those of Messianic Judaism, who are Gentiles wanna be Jews.
A true Jews under the rellgion of Jesus Christ are those men and women among the Gentiles and Jews who have been circumcised in the heart by the Spirit of God.
I have a meeting that is calling for me...later.
Greetings David,
David, do not accuse me of being anti-Semite, just because I use scriptures written by those godly men who were by nature Jews.
David the "Jewish" apostles took the OT scriptures and applied them spiritually the body of Christ, which consist of Jews and Gentiles ~and, in this dispensation are mainly Gentiles, just as the OT were mainly Jews with a few exceptions. The thief here is not me and others who understand the scriptures but all those of Messianic Judaism, who are Gentiles wanna be Jews.
Revelation 2:9
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”A true Jews under the rellgion of Jesus Christ are those men and women among the Gentiles and Jews who have been circumcised in the heart by the Spirit of God.
Romans 2:28,29
“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”I have a meeting that is calling for me...later.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Stay in context. And it is a very weak argument to identify "all the families" as God identifying non-Hebrew Gentiles". I asked for ANYONE to provide a Scripture in the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture of God making a covenant with (non-Hebrew) Gentiles and not only are there no Scriptures that records God making a covenant with Gentiles, but no one can tell me this Gentile's name God supposedly made covenant with. In Genesis 14:13 God identifies Abram as Hebrew (of the family of Eber.) Where does God choose out a Gentile, identify him as Gentile, and then declare a covenant between God and this Gentile and his Gentile seed?
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3.
"In thee" refers to his (Abram's) biological families that will be born in time. As we read on in Scripture, we see Ishmael and later, Esau, are Abraham's descendants and were also blessed of God. The covenant is between God, Abram the Hebrew, and Abram's Hebrew seed.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Genesis 17:7.
And because God knew that non-Hebrew Gentiles would try to steal the covenant He made with Abram and to steal Israel's inheritance, God says it again who is in this covenant:
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Genesis 17:10.
and again:
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Genesis 17:2.
and again:
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:4.
and again:
... and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. Genesis 17:13.
Then God identifies out of the two sons of Abraham to be born which one possesses the covenant and its blessings, and which possesses only the blessings and not the covenant.
19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19.
God then turns His attention to Ishmael:
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. Genesis 17:20.
God did say that through Abraham's seed nations and kings will be born from Abraham and Sarah. Ishmael is one example, Esau is another. Then there are Abraham's descendants that are not named in Scripture. They in their own right become a nation of people with some having a king to lead them just as Israel had kings to lead them (even if their leadership led the people into sin.)
God reiterates the line of succession with regard to the covenant and the blessings that accompany it.
21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year. Genesis 17:21.
Then this meeting is over after God makes covenant with Abram the Hebrew and identifies all its particulars.
22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham. Genesis 17:22.
AS FOR CHRIST, who is of the seed of Abram the Hebrew Christ is the outworkings of the Abraham Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. Both these covenants remain between God and Abraham and Abraham's seed. There are no Gentiles named or included in either of these two covenants. Their history and the history of the people of God are recorded in the Hebrew Scripture, from Genesis to Malachi. And in these "books" of their Bible Gentiles are the enemy of God and Israel. There is nothing in these writings where God makes any kind of covenant with Gentiles. In fact, this is the attitude of God towards these uncircumcised, non-covenant, idol-worshiping Gentiles whom He hates:
17 All nations before him are as nothing;
And they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity.
Isaiah 40:17.
When Jesus Christ arrived, He was the fulfillment of many prophecies about Him, one is found in the Law of Moses:
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deut. 18:15.
and
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut. 18:18.
When Jesus did arrive, He was born to a Hebrew girl/woman, named Mariam/Mary. Mariam was the name of Moses' sister. As Jesus grew up and began His Ministry to the Hebrew people He fulfilled many prophecies and taught the people out of their Law, the Law of Moses. The conflict the religious leaders had with Jesus was simple: They taught the letter of the Law and Jesus came teaching the spirit of the Law. But it was the Law of Moses He taught. And because they were 'spiritually discerned' they could not understand the spirit of the Law unless Jesus Himself opened their minds to it. Apparently, Jesus opened the minds of both Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea, and later, Saul, Apollos, Epaphroditus, the twelve disciples, and others. In Matthew 5:17, Jesus says the following:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17–18.
Any change in the Law would destroy the Law. God's Word is a sure foundation. He doesn't lie. And through the centuries God has raised the Hebrews, protected them, fed them, defended them, chastised them, judged them, blessed them, etc.
And this is the fulfillment of the Law Jesus stated He came to fulfill:
In the Law God commanded the Hebrew people in the way He was to be worshiped. The Ceremonial Law lays out those instructions. In the Law, the high priest takes an animal, sacrifices that animal on an altar, and sprinkles the people with its blood. This was done yearly, and it is called "Yom Kippur." In these Laws God instructed the high priest to sacrifice an animal to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people for one year until the next Yom Kippur arrives, then the high priest would do it all over again, perpetually. Under the substitutionary sacrificial system God gave to the Hebrew people, Jesus Christ was sent as God's lamb whom God Himself would sacrifice to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people the same way that it was done under the Law, except God's atonement was one-time and forever.
Under the Law there is no record of the high priest ever leaving Israel, go to the Gentile nations that surrounded Israel, and offer sacrifices for their sins. This never happened. Neither did God nor Christ change the Law to atone for the sins of non-Hebrew Gentiles. Thus, under the Law, Jesus Christ died and was raised to atone for the sins of the Hebrew people. Thus, the Law was obeyed, maintained, and established as written except now through Jesus Christ, natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel, and the Promised Holy Spirit of God is given to the Hebrew people as prophesied by Joel and promised by God. If you read the prophecy by Joel, you will find the Spirit was promised to Israel and NOT to any non-Hebrew Gentiles, and one needs the Spirit to be born-again and saved.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Only in the sense that He is Hebrew. It is God who identifies Israel as an Olive tree in Jeremiah and Hosea. There is no Scripture that says God called Jesus Christ as Olive tree, nor did God call non-Hebrew Gentiles as Olive tree.
Yup.
As I said, there is no Scripture in the Old Testament Scripture where God calls non-Hebrew Gentiles an Olive tree. So, anyone who wants to use Saul's letter to Rome in chapter 11 that Gentiles are an Olive tree are adding to the Bible things not recorded there. According to God anyone who does that is a liar and no liar, according to John, has eternal life living in them.
6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.
God hates liars. God hates those who ADD to His Word.
It's all about what you can prove through Scripture. If you can post the Scripture from the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture where God calls non-Hebrew Gentiles an Olive tree, then you might have a basis for interpreting Saul's words in Romans 11 where he identifies the Olive tree and those broken off as Gentiles. If there is no Scripture in the Old Testament where God calls Gentiles an Olive tree, then you are adding to the Scripture/Bible and God hates you.
When the Holy Spirit of Promise PROMISED TO ISRAEL arrived, He began to do things among the Jewish people that was not understood. It was the beginning of the New Covenant era and there was no one to describe to the Hebrew people what God was doing 'in the earth.'
There were some things the disciples knew for they were discipled by Jesus Himself, except without the Holy Spirit those spiritual matters was not understood until the Holy Spirit came and illuminated, enlightened, and inspired men (and women) in the things of God using the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture, for everything taking place in Israel was prophesied in the Old Testament Scripture. Apollos, Priscilla and Aquila, and others did search Scripture in order to understand this new thing God was doing, but it was mainly Saul, a rabbi and Pharisee who searched the Scripture after disappearing for 14-17 years to study Scripture and through his anointing God gave him the understanding. So, he wrote to the Jews and Jewish Christians in those named cities in the Roman Empire where Jews and Jewish Christians lived. Everything we find in Saul's letters must first be found in the Old Testament Hebrew Scripture for that's where God made promises, prophecies, etc., to and for the Hebrew people. If you cannotfind something in the Old Testament, then you cannot establish itas truth or doctrine, for God told us through Saul's letter to Timothy (a mixed heritage Hebrew) that:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16–17.
So, if you want to pass off that Olive tree in Romans 11 are Gentiles, you must first find it established in the Old Testament Scripture, or you cannot use it nor call it "doctrine." God says it is the OLD TESTAMENT Scripture that is profitable for DOCTRINE, etc., NOT the New Testament writings.
Jesus Himself establishes the Old Testament Scripture as profitable in Luke:
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:25–27.
Again, if you want to establish something as doctrine then it must first be found in the Old Testament. That's what Saul did. He possessed "parchments, "books" and Scripture and other writings with which he studied the Old Testament in order to understand the New Covenant era Israel found herself in. Everything in the New Testament is only revelational understanding of the Old Testament in order to comprehend what was taking place in Israel after the Holy Spirit arrived and began doing His "thing." If "it" is not found written in the Old Testament, then you can't bring something up in the vanity of your mind and call it doctrine in the New, for the New only describes and explains the Old.
27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus said the following:
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:17–18.
Show me in Scripture the high priest leaving the Holy Land, going to the Gentile nations, and offering sacrifices to atone for their sins.
If you're going to say that Jesus' sacrifice was to atone for the sins of non-Hebrew Gentiles, then you are teaching Jesus changed the Law and in changing the Law He destroyed the Law and NO ONE can come to Christ to be saved. NO ONE.
So, show me in the Old Testament where it says in the Law the high priest leaving Israel, goes to Gentiles, and sacrifices animals to atone for their sins. Show me where it says this. Because if you can't show me through the Old Testament Scripture the high priest doing this, then you are adding to the Bible things not there and you are also teaching Jesus changed the Law by having His sacrifice to be used to atone for the sins of Gentiles.
Scripture, please.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Where in the opening post does it give any praise or hi fives to anyone but God's chosen?
It was Paul, who dragged the Gentiles into the mix.... as much as he did.
In the old testament God made a covenant with HIS chosen only. Period That should have been understood by the OP, but obviously not to you as you keep trying to make the OP into something it is not.
I am not the one who said the Gentiles were grafted in as a wild branch to that olive tree , when some of the original branches
broke off.
And guess what.
OPEN YOUR EYES>
It never happened in old testament times. Not until God sent Jesus back to get the lost sheep that he was able to.
SO HOW COULD IT BE POSSIBLE , COVENENT OR NOT TO BE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHEN JESUS WAS NOT MENTIONED UNTIL THE NEW?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sure Jesus did some miracle things for non Jewish people. That woman who sought him out for her daughter, for one. But that was rare.
But as the following says so concisely
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.
And it also explains "Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
So the only possibility of anything between God the Father and the Gentiles, or any one out of the loop of Jesus and the Chosen
could only happen After Jesus came.
Here is a little light reading for you, and then, I am done trying to explain what you refuse to try to understand.
Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series – 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
Resources Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.For example, John the Baptist came to minister to the nation of Israel to prepare them for their Messiah. When Jesus began His ministry, it was only to the people of Israel. When He sent out the apostles on their first evangelistic mission, He ordered them, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6). This does not mean that He ignored individual Gentiles, because He did minister to a few (Matt. 8:5-13; 15:21-28), but His major emphasis was on Israel.
After His resurrection, He commanded the apostles to remain in Jerusalem and begin their ministry there (Luke 24:44-49). The period covered by Acts 1–7 is characterized by a ministry only to Jews or Jewish proselytes. It was not until Acts 8 that the gospel went to the Samaritans; in Acts 10 it went to the Gentiles. Then, through the ministry of Paul, it went throughout the Roman Empire (Acts 13:1-3).
When He came and died, Jesus Christ confirmed the promises that God made to Abraham and the other “fathers” of the Jewish nation (see Luke 1:30-33, 46-55, 67-80). Some of these promises have already been fulfilled, but many await fulfillment when He returns to earth to establish His kingdom.
Was it selfish of God to emphasize the Jews? No, because through the Jews, He would send the good news of salvation to the Gentiles. The first Christians were Jewish believers. “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In the Old Testament period, God chose Israel to be a minister to the Gentiles, but instead, Israel copied the idolatrous ways of the Gentiles and had to be chastened. In the New Testament period, God chose Jewish believers to carry the good news to the Gentiles, and they obeyed Him.
There is a beautiful progression in the promises that Paul quoted in Romans 15:9-12.
- The Jews glorify God among the Gentiles (Rom. 15:9, quoting Ps. 18:49).
- The Gentiles rejoice with the Jews (Rom. 15:10, quoting Deut. 32:43).
- All the Jews and Gentiles together praise God (Rom. 15:11, quoting Ps. 117:1).
- Christ shall reign over Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 15:12, quoting Isa. 11:10).
The word trust at the end of Romans 15:12 is actually the word for hope. At one time the Gentiles were “without hope” (Eph. 2:12 niv), but now in Christ they have hope. Not only do believers have hope, but they also have joy and peace and power (Rom. 15:13). The Holy Spirit of God shares these blessings with them as they yield to Him.
Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
Copyright © Warren W. Wiersbe. Generously provided by David C. Cook. See all the volumes in the BE Bible Study Series in the Bible Gateway Store.
Selah
Active Member
“dragged?” …not so.
The inclusion of the Gentiles was God’s doing. Why was the apostle Paul chosen? Why was he called by Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus? … because it was the will of God that this should be done. The book of Ephesians is written "to the saints, and those faithful to Christ Jesus.” The "saints" are the “set aside ones,” also called "God's elect.” We read in the book of Acts that the Lord said concerning Paul:
Acts 9:15-16 (KJV) 15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
s e l a h
David Koberstein
Active Member
Where in the opening post does it give any praise or hi fives to anyone but God's chosen?
It was Paul, who dragged the Gentiles into the mix.... as much as he did.
In the old testament God made a covenant with HIS chosen only. Period That should have been understood by the OP, but obviously not to you as you keep trying to make the OP into something it is not.
I am not the one who said the Gentiles were grafted in as a wild branch to that olive tree , when some of the original branches
broke off.
And guess what.
OPEN YOUR EYES>
It never happened in old testament times. Not until God sent Jesus back to get the lost sheep that he was able to.
SO HOW COULD IT BE POSSIBLE , COVENENT OR NOT TO BE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHEN JESUS WAS NOT MENTIONED UNTIL THE NEW?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sure Jesus did some miracle things for non Jewish people. That woman who sought him out for her daughter, for one. But that was rare.
But as the following says so concisely
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.
And it also explains "Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
So the only possibility of anything between God the Father and the Gentiles, or any one out of the loop of Jesus and the Chosen
could only happen After Jesus came.
Here is a little light reading for you, and then, I am done trying to explain what you refuse to try to understand.
Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series – 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
Resources Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.
For example, John the Baptist came to minister to the nation of Israel to prepare them for their Messiah. When Jesus began His ministry, it was only to the people of Israel. When He sent out the apostles on their first evangelistic mission, He ordered them, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6). This does not mean that He ignored individual Gentiles, because He did minister to a few (Matt. 8:5-13; 15:21-28), but His major emphasis was on Israel.
After His resurrection, He commanded the apostles to remain in Jerusalem and begin their ministry there (Luke 24:44-49). The period covered by Acts 1–7 is characterized by a ministry only to Jews or Jewish proselytes. It was not until Acts 8 that the gospel went to the Samaritans; in Acts 10 it went to the Gentiles. Then, through the ministry of Paul, it went throughout the Roman Empire (Acts 13:1-3).
When He came and died, Jesus Christ confirmed the promises that God made to Abraham and the other “fathers” of the Jewish nation (see Luke 1:30-33, 46-55, 67-80). Some of these promises have already been fulfilled, but many await fulfillment when He returns to earth to establish His kingdom.
Was it selfish of God to emphasize the Jews? No, because through the Jews, He would send the good news of salvation to the Gentiles. The first Christians were Jewish believers. “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In the Old Testament period, God chose Israel to be a minister to the Gentiles, but instead, Israel copied the idolatrous ways of the Gentiles and had to be chastened. In the New Testament period, God chose Jewish believers to carry the good news to the Gentiles, and they obeyed Him.
There is a beautiful progression in the promises that Paul quoted in Romans 15:9-12.
Romans 15:8 covers the period of the gospels and Acts 1–7. Romans 15:9 describes the ministry of Paul as he witnessed among the Gentiles. Romans 15:10 could be applied to the church council in Acts 15 when the Gentiles were given equal status “with his people.” Today, Jews and Gentiles in the church are praising God together.
- The Jews glorify God among the Gentiles (Rom. 15:9, quoting Ps. 18:49).
- The Gentiles rejoice with the Jews (Rom. 15:10, quoting Deut. 32:43).
- All the Jews and Gentiles together praise God (Rom. 15:11, quoting Ps. 117:1).
- Christ shall reign over Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 15:12, quoting Isa. 11:10).
The word trust at the end of Romans 15:12 is actually the word for hope. At one time the Gentiles were “without hope” (Eph. 2:12 niv), but now in Christ they have hope. Not only do believers have hope, but they also have joy and peace and power (Rom. 15:13). The Holy Spirit of God shares these blessings with them as they yield to Him.
Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
Copyright © Warren W. Wiersbe. Generously provided by David C. Cook. See all the volumes in the BE Bible Study Series in the Bible Gateway Store
The term "Gentile" describes any and every person of non-Jewish heritage. Abraham was the first Jew! But wait! Noah predated
Abraham by a 1,000 years and he obviously was a non-Jew. The Noahic Covenant is a promise from God to Noah and all living
creatures (Jew, Non-Jew, and the animal world), recorded in Genesis 8:20-9:17, that He will never again destroy the earth with a great flood. The Gentiles do have a covenant in the Tanakh (Old Testament) with Noah. The rainbow in the sky is it just for Jews to see? NO It is there for all humanity and the animal kingdom to see and know that the God of Israel keeps his promises even until this day!
Baruch Hashem Adonai ברוך האשם אדונאי
Shalom שלום
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Don't tell me, tell @jeremiah1five
FreeInChrist
Active Member
Thank you,
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Jesus said:Where in the opening post does it give any praise or hi fives to anyone but God's chosen?
It was Paul, who dragged the Gentiles into the mix.... as much as he did.
In the old testament God made a covenant with HIS chosen only. Period That should have been understood by the OP, but obviously not to you as you keep trying to make the OP into something it is not.
I am not the one who said the Gentiles were grafted in as a wild branch to that olive tree , when some of the original branches
broke off.
And guess what.
OPEN YOUR EYES>
It never happened in old testament times. Not until God sent Jesus back to get the lost sheep that he was able to.
SO HOW COULD IT BE POSSIBLE , COVENENT OR NOT TO BE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT WHEN JESUS WAS NOT MENTIONED UNTIL THE NEW?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sure Jesus did some miracle things for non Jewish people. That woman who sought him out for her daughter, for one. But that was rare.
But as the following says so concisely
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.
And it also explains "Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
So the only possibility of anything between God the Father and the Gentiles, or any one out of the loop of Jesus and the Chosen
could only happen After Jesus came.
Here is a little light reading for you, and then, I am done trying to explain what you refuse to try to understand.
Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series – 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
Resources Warren Wiersbe BE Bible Study Series 1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (15:8-13)
1. The Ministry of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles (
The supreme example of ministry must always be Jesus Christ. “But I am among you as he that serveth” (Luke 22:27). He came first of all to minister to the Jews, that through Israel He might be able to minister to the Gentiles. “To the Jew first” is a principle that was followed in the earthly ministry of Christ and in the early ministry of the church.
For example, John the Baptist came to minister to the nation of Israel to prepare them for their Messiah. When Jesus began His ministry, it was only to the people of Israel. When He sent out the apostles on their first evangelistic mission, He ordered them, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not; but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matt. 10:5-6). This does not mean that He ignored individual Gentiles, because He did minister to a few (Matt. 8:5-13; 15:21-28), but His major emphasis was on Israel.
After His resurrection, He commanded the apostles to remain in Jerusalem and begin their ministry there (Luke 24:44-49). The period covered by Acts 1–7 is characterized by a ministry only to Jews or Jewish proselytes. It was not until Acts 8 that the gospel went to the Samaritans; in Acts 10 it went to the Gentiles. Then, through the ministry of Paul, it went throughout the Roman Empire (Acts 13:1-3).
When He came and died, Jesus Christ confirmed the promises that God made to Abraham and the other “fathers” of the Jewish nation (see Luke 1:30-33, 46-55, 67-80). Some of these promises have already been fulfilled, but many await fulfillment when He returns to earth to establish His kingdom.
Was it selfish of God to emphasize the Jews? No, because through the Jews, He would send the good news of salvation to the Gentiles. The first Christians were Jewish believers. “Salvation is of the Jews” (John 4:22). In the Old Testament period, God chose Israel to be a minister to the Gentiles, but instead, Israel copied the idolatrous ways of the Gentiles and had to be chastened. In the New Testament period, God chose Jewish believers to carry the good news to the Gentiles, and they obeyed Him.
There is a beautiful progression in the promises that Paul quoted in Romans 15:9-12.
Romans 15:8 covers the period of the gospels and Acts 1–7. Romans 15:9 describes the ministry of Paul as he witnessed among the Gentiles. Romans 15:10 could be applied to the church council in Acts 15 when the Gentiles were given equal status “with his people.” Today, Jews and Gentiles in the church are praising God together.
- The Jews glorify God among the Gentiles (Rom. 15:9, quoting Ps. 18:49).
- The Gentiles rejoice with the Jews (Rom. 15:10, quoting Deut. 32:43).
- All the Jews and Gentiles together praise God (Rom. 15:11, quoting Ps. 117:1).
- Christ shall reign over Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 15:12, quoting Isa. 11:10).
The word trust at the end of Romans 15:12 is actually the word for hope. At one time the Gentiles were “without hope” (Eph. 2:12 niv), but now in Christ they have hope. Not only do believers have hope, but they also have joy and peace and power (Rom. 15:13). The Holy Spirit of God shares these blessings with them as they yield to Him.
Because the Jewish Christians were faithful to take the gospel to the Gentiles, the nations of the world today have the opportunity to trust Christ as Savior.
Copyright © Warren W. Wiersbe. Generously provided by David C. Cook. See all the volumes in the BE Bible Study Series in the Bible Gateway Store.
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; John 10:35.
When Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), he was making a profound statement about the authority, truthfulness, and reliability of God's written Word. This declaration came in the context of a heated debate with Jewish leaders who were accusing him of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God and "one" with the Father.
If there are no Gentiles named, identified, or mentioned in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, New), found in the Hebrew Scripture then there are none included into the three Hebrew covenants in the New Testament era otherwise Scripture has been broken. And if one passage in the New Testament can change a Scripture in the Old Testament, and any interpretation in the New Testament adds non-Hebrew Gentiles in the Hebrew covenants, then Scripture as a whole is unreliable and cannot be trusted.
Jesus said, "Scripture cannot be broken." Therefore, any interpretation in the New Testament that breaks with Scripture in the Old Testament, then that interpretation is wrong, and its conclusion or teaching is false and is to be rejected.
Therefore, the teaching today that non-Hebrew Gentiles are included in any of the three Hebrew covenants (Abraham, Mosaic, and New), BREAKS SCRIPTURE of the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures for there are no non-Hebrew Gentiles named, mentioned, or included in the three Hebrew covenants as recorded and described in the Old Testament.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
That definition did not at first when God made covenant with Abraham described in Genesis 12, 15, and 17 did not mean "non-Hebrew" when the Abraham Covenant was made between God and Abram the Hebrew (Gen. 14:13.) As Strong defines the word "masses" (as in masses of animals and/or people) is the definition of the word at the time the Abraham covenant was made. By identifying Abraham as "Hebrew" in Genesis 14:13 God is identifying Abram/Abraham as a descendant of the family of Eber, who the Hebrew receive as the father of the Hebrew people. In time the word came to describe anyone who is non-Hebrew (not of the family of Eber.)
"Jew" refers to the tribe of Judah and neither Noah or Abram were "Jewish" since the tribe of Judah had not yet been born into the world.
I agree. But the Noahic Covenant, specifically made with Noah and his sons and with all mankind in general, is not a covenant that includes salvation/deliverance/redemption from sin and death. The Mosaic Covenant - a natural outgrowth of the Abraham Covenant made with Abram and his seed/descendants is the mechanism by which God set forth as the means of the salvation/deliverance/redemption of the Hebrew people through its sacrificial system of substitutionary atonement.
God instructed and commanded the Hebrew people to build an earthly Tabernacle, and it was fashioned after the 'blueprints' of the heavenly Tabernacle. There are reasons for this. One reason is that God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. Based upon this truth God found it necessary to create heaven, earth, and man, and to orchestrate a means in time by which He can bring man into eternity with Himself.
civic
Active Member
Abraham was a Gentile who was chosen by God to be the ancestor of the Jewish people.
The term Jew is a shortened form of the word Judah, which was the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the tribe of David and of Jesus (Matthew 1:1). Judah was also the name of the southern half of the kingdom of Israel when it split into two parts (1 Kings 12), because it was dominated by the large tribe of Judah. The first time the word Jew is used in the Bible is during the exile (2 Kings 25:25), and may have been a term coined by the Babylonians or Persians to refer to the people in their midst who had come from the kingdom of Judah. By New Testament times, Jew was a common term, and it has remained in usage unto this day. Obviously, Abraham was never referred to by this term.
The term Gentile is simply from the Latin word for “nation.” When the term Gentiles is used in Scripture, it means “the nations.” If a person is a Gentile, he or she is a member of one of the many nations in the world. When Jew and Gentile are juxtaposed, the contrast is between one who is a member of God’s chosen nation and one who is a member of one of the hundreds of other nations or ethnic groups not chosen for special blessing in the way that Israel was. In this context, Gentile simply means “not Jewish.”
Abraham started out as a member of one of the many nations or ethnic groups that were in existence at the time. (Of course, these are somewhat artificial distinctions, because all people came from Adam and Eve, and all people are related if the genealogy is traced back far enough. However, after Babel, people started to segregate into smaller groups and develop into distinctive ethnic groups, clans, and nations.) Abraham was living in Ur of the Chaldeans. While he was there, God called him:
“The Lord had said to Abram, ‘Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’” (Genesis 12:1–3).
At that point, Abraham was called and set apart for God’s purposes. He left his native country and people behind. His descendants would become the great nation of Israel, God’s chosen people, but the line had not been narrowed down yet. Abraham had several sons: Isaac, by his wife Sarah; Ishmael, by a slave of Sarah; and other sons with another wife after Sarah died. However, it was only Isaac who was the chosen one. Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau, and only Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel) was the chosen one. All of Jacob’s 12 sons were included as patriarchs in the nation of Israel and became the basis for the 12 tribes. It was at this point that the line had been finally set; however, the wives of Jacob’s sons were still from outside the family.
With the next generation of Jacob’s grandchildren, the descendants of Jacob became a distinct people group, and they were distinguished from the Egyptians among whom they were living as having all descended from one man named Israel. By the time of Exodus 1, they were recognized as a distinct nation.
Technically, no one was called a “Jew” before the exile; however, the people who became known as Jews were a distinct ethnic group by the time of Exodus 1. They were a distinct clan by the time of Jacob and his sons. Abraham was a Gentile, that is, a member of one of the many nations that had developed by his time. The Jews came from Abraham because he was chosen by God from among the nations to be the origin of a new nation. The Jews of Jesus’ day looked to Abraham (not Jacob/Israel) as the head of their race (see Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8; John 8:39; Acts 13:26; Galatians 3:7). If one is thinking in these terms, it would not be wrong to think of Abraham as “the first Jew,” although that’s not technically correct.got?
hope this helps !!!
The term Jew is a shortened form of the word Judah, which was the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the tribe of David and of Jesus (Matthew 1:1). Judah was also the name of the southern half of the kingdom of Israel when it split into two parts (1 Kings 12), because it was dominated by the large tribe of Judah. The first time the word Jew is used in the Bible is during the exile (2 Kings 25:25), and may have been a term coined by the Babylonians or Persians to refer to the people in their midst who had come from the kingdom of Judah. By New Testament times, Jew was a common term, and it has remained in usage unto this day. Obviously, Abraham was never referred to by this term.
The term Gentile is simply from the Latin word for “nation.” When the term Gentiles is used in Scripture, it means “the nations.” If a person is a Gentile, he or she is a member of one of the many nations in the world. When Jew and Gentile are juxtaposed, the contrast is between one who is a member of God’s chosen nation and one who is a member of one of the hundreds of other nations or ethnic groups not chosen for special blessing in the way that Israel was. In this context, Gentile simply means “not Jewish.”
Abraham started out as a member of one of the many nations or ethnic groups that were in existence at the time. (Of course, these are somewhat artificial distinctions, because all people came from Adam and Eve, and all people are related if the genealogy is traced back far enough. However, after Babel, people started to segregate into smaller groups and develop into distinctive ethnic groups, clans, and nations.) Abraham was living in Ur of the Chaldeans. While he was there, God called him:
“The Lord had said to Abram, ‘Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you’” (Genesis 12:1–3).
At that point, Abraham was called and set apart for God’s purposes. He left his native country and people behind. His descendants would become the great nation of Israel, God’s chosen people, but the line had not been narrowed down yet. Abraham had several sons: Isaac, by his wife Sarah; Ishmael, by a slave of Sarah; and other sons with another wife after Sarah died. However, it was only Isaac who was the chosen one. Isaac had two sons, Jacob and Esau, and only Jacob (whose name was later changed to Israel) was the chosen one. All of Jacob’s 12 sons were included as patriarchs in the nation of Israel and became the basis for the 12 tribes. It was at this point that the line had been finally set; however, the wives of Jacob’s sons were still from outside the family.
With the next generation of Jacob’s grandchildren, the descendants of Jacob became a distinct people group, and they were distinguished from the Egyptians among whom they were living as having all descended from one man named Israel. By the time of Exodus 1, they were recognized as a distinct nation.
Technically, no one was called a “Jew” before the exile; however, the people who became known as Jews were a distinct ethnic group by the time of Exodus 1. They were a distinct clan by the time of Jacob and his sons. Abraham was a Gentile, that is, a member of one of the many nations that had developed by his time. The Jews came from Abraham because he was chosen by God from among the nations to be the origin of a new nation. The Jews of Jesus’ day looked to Abraham (not Jacob/Israel) as the head of their race (see Matthew 3:9; Luke 3:8; John 8:39; Acts 13:26; Galatians 3:7). If one is thinking in these terms, it would not be wrong to think of Abraham as “the first Jew,” although that’s not technically correct.got?
hope this helps !!!
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@civic I thank you also.
I thank everyone who is adding to my education. (Abraham was a Gentile") Not sure if it is to anyone else's. But is a great way to circumn=vent the OP subject and get everyones mind off that.
I had never heard that and it is good to know. Also helps fortify why I always say the predestined are those picked for a purpose.... not for general salvation or doom.
Everyone, no comment. I can say it like that if I wish because you all know what I am referencing.
David Koberstein
Active Member
D
doesn't necessarily mean from the tribe of Judah. There are Jews all over the world from different tribes of the 12.
For example the tribe of Levi was responsible for the tabernacle.
Shalom
The word Jew
doesn't necessarily mean from the tribe of Judah. There are Jews all over the world from different tribes of the 12.For example the tribe of Levi was responsible for the tabernacle.
Shalom
David Koberstein
Active Member
It does and thank you for that clarification.
Shalom
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Or I could go to the nt and prove my point
ps. Abraham was not a jew. nor was he Israel.. Israel was one of his grandsons. Nor did he have the law..
Rom 4: 9. does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 ;Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
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