Those who deny the Lord Jesus is God (=YHWH) are not saved (2 Corinthians 11:4)

F

Fred

Well-known member
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.
Romans 10:8, 13 (kēryssō)
(8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...
(13) For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (cf. Joel 2:32; 3:5 LXX)




2 Corinthians 11:4b
or you received a different spirit which you have not received
1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God.

When the gospel Peter preached was believed the Holy Spirit (not a different spirit) was received (cf. Acts 10:47).
Acts 15:7-8
(7) After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(8) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us.

Peter also included the fact that Jesus is YHWH (Acts 2:21) when he preached the gospel (Acts 10:42).




Those who reject the Lord Jesus is YHWH have "a different gospel." It is a contrary gospel to the gospel preached by Paul and Peter.
2 Corinthians 11:4c
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully
Galatians 1:6-9
(6) I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
(7) which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
(8) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
(9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

A "jesus" who is not YHWH belongs to a gospel that cannot save anyone.
 
Fred said:
A "jesus" who is not YHWH belongs to a gospel that cannot save anyone.
Click to expand...

The thing is about this, is all false doctrine affects the character of Christ in one way or another. Yet we do not think all false doctrine forfeits salvation.

For example, Calvinism distorts the character of Christ greatly—it attributes distortions and evil to him. Yet, I still think their faith in the atonement, the grace of God, can save.

So what bandwidth or spectrum of doctrine is within salvific? It's a difficult question to ask. Obviously there is some requirement or else everyone is saved, and this is not the import of Scripture.

I see a work of the Spirit producing a true belief that Christ was sent by God to atone for sins, as the most fundamental and essential meaning of the Gospel.
 
dizerner said:
So what bandwidth or spectrum of doctrine is within salvific? It's a difficult question to ask
Click to expand...

Good points.
It is clear (based on the evidence presented in the OP) that a jesus who is not God cannot save.

A "true belief" in Christ would necessitate a true belief in the true Christ, not a false one (Matthew 24:5).
 
dizerner said:
I see a work of the Spirit producing a true belief that Christ was sent by God to atone for sins, as the most fundamental and essential meaning of the Gospel.
Click to expand...
You place conditions on this right here, the atonement. Only one view in your book is acceptable and all the other theories are rubbish and false. The simplicity of the gospel outlined by Paul is that Christ died for our sins ( forgiveness of our sins through His blood). Its a simple faith in His life, death, burial and resurrection after 3 days and His bodily appearances. There is not theology degree required just the child like faith in Christs atonement for ones sin. Nothing more, nothing less is required.

So the gospel and its simple understanding is fundamental, essential. As Paul says one must believe the basics above in his heart and confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord to be saved. That is belief in the gospel according to Paul in 1 Cor 15:1-8 and Romans 10:9-13. That is what and how one becomes saved.

hope this helps !!!
 
Fred said:
Good points.
It is clear (based on the evidence presented in the OP) that a jesus who is not God cannot save.

A "true belief" in Christ would necessitate a true belief in the true Christ, not a false one (Matthew 24:5).
Click to expand...
Thats the ongoing and never ending debate how does one tell the difference between the a false christ/god and the True Christ/ God. We know the bible talks about false gods, idolatry, false christs, wolves in sheeps clothing etc......

I think even trinitarians would not be in complete agreement on exactly what those distinctions might be. You and I may agree but there will be others in our camp that would take issue on what is required to be saved.

Then there is the issue as to what cannot be denies which opens up a whole other can of worms so to speak. We use to have some heated debates on this i the old forum we use to battle on.
 
Fred said:
2 Corinthians 11:4
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached,
or you receive a different spirit which you have not received,
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully.

Jesus - pneuma (S/spirit) - Gospel
All three stand or fall together.



2 Corinthians 11:4a
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached

The Jesus Paul preached is Lord (=YHWH).
2 Corinthians 4:5 (kēryssō)
For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.
Romans 10:8, 13 (kēryssō)
(8) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching...
(13) For whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (cf. Joel 2:32; 3:5 LXX)




2 Corinthians 11:4b
or you received a different spirit which you have not received
1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God.

When the gospel Peter preached was believed the Holy Spirit (not a different spirit) was received (cf. Acts 10:47).
Acts 15:7-8
(7) After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
(8) And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us.

Peter also included the fact that Jesus is YHWH (Acts 2:21) when he preached the gospel (Acts 10:42).




Those who reject the Lord Jesus is YHWH have "a different gospel." It is a contrary gospel to the gospel preached by Paul and Peter.
2 Corinthians 11:4c
or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully
Galatians 1:6-9
(6) I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel;
(7) which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
(8) But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!
(9) As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

A "jesus" who is not YHWH belongs to a gospel that cannot save anyone.
Click to expand...
Our actions testify about what we believe regardless of whether we recognize with our mouth that is what we are doing, which is why James 2:18 says that he would show his faith by his works, which means that everyone who does the same works as him has the same faith as him. If two people are doing the same works as James except one says with their mouth that Jesus is YHVH while the other doesn't, then I don't see good grounds for thinking that one is saved while the other is not. Both are living in a way that testifies about Jesus, about the spirit, and about the Gospel. The way to worship Jesus is the same as the way to worship YHVH, so what difference does it make if someone claims with their mouth that what they are doing is worshiping YHVH/Jesus or just YHVH?
 
Soyeong said:
I don't see good grounds for thinking that one is saved while the other is not.
Click to expand...

Ultimately, God alone knows if they are a Christian or not since He alone knows the hearts of all people (1 Kings 8:39).



Soyeong said:
The way to worship Jesus is the same as the way to worship YHVH, so what difference does it make if someone claims with their mouth that what they are doing is worshiping YHVH/Jesus or just YHVH?
Click to expand...

Please explain this more because I am not sure what you mean by this.
 
Fred said:
A "true belief" in Christ would necessitate a true belief in the true Christ, not a false one (Matthew 24:5).
Click to expand...

Again. though, I'd wager to believe that you think Calvinists are saved (maybe you don't!).

Many Christians see a part of Christ in a false way, I don't think I even see him perfectly yet.
 
civic said:
You place conditions on this right here, the atonement. Only one view in your book is acceptable and all the other theories are rubbish and false. The simplicity of the gospel outlined by Paul is that Christ died for our sins ( forgiveness of our sins through His blood). Its a simple faith in His life, death, burial and resurrection after 3 days and His bodily appearances. There is not theology degree required just the child like faith in Christs atonement for ones sin. Nothing more, nothing less is required.
Click to expand...

First of all, I never said a distorted view of the atonement doesn't save. You really don't even pay close to attention to most of my posts, you barely even read them based on the lack of proper representation and detail. I can point you to multiple places I thought a distorted view of the atonement could probably still save, but I wasn't sure. Now even you are using "atonement" sounding language even though you doublespeak and deny and change fundamental meanings about it.

Second of all, I don't think a proper understanding of the atonement is even complicated. You just don't like it, it's not "too complicated" to understand that your sins produce a punishment of wrath and Jesus took that for you. Even a child can understand Jesus took God's wrath for our sins. So you grossly misrepresent and distort my view. Nobody needs a degree in theology or to understand calculus or quantum physics to get the idea of wrath against sins. You are distorting my view to make a straw man of "over intellectual" that's easier to criticize, simply because you don't like the fundamental message of God's holiness.

I really wish you would stop doing these things.
 
dizerner said:
First of all, I never said a distorted view of the atonement doesn't save. You really don't even pay close to attention to most of my posts, you barely even read them based on the lack of proper representation and detail. I can point you to multiple places I thought a distorted view of the atonement could probably still save, but I wasn't sure. Now even you are using "atonement" sounding language even though you doublespeak and deny and change fundamental meanings about it.

Second of all, I don't think a proper understanding of the atonement is even complicated. You just don't like it, it's not "too complicated" to understand that your sins produce a punishment of wrath and Jesus took that for you. Even a child can understand Jesus took God's wrath for our sins. So you grossly misrepresent and distort my view. Nobody needs a degree in theology or to understand calculus or quantum physics to get the idea of wrath against sins. You are distorting my view to make a straw man of "over intellectual" that's easier to criticize, simply because you don't like the fundamental message of God's holiness.

I really wish you would stop doing these things.
Click to expand...
You called those who reject PSA satanic. Are you denying that ?

see here it was edited out


and here

 
Last edited:
dizerner said:
Do you think good works alone save?

Do you think belief in Jesus making an atonement of sins plays a part in salvation?
Click to expand...
Alone apart from what?

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we are saved through faith in Jesus apart from being required to first have done good works in order to earn our salvation as the result, living in obedience to God's law through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first become saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Moreover, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20), which again is how James showed his faith.
 
Fred said:
Ultimately, God alone knows if they are a Christian or not since He alone knows the hearts of all people (1 Kings 8:39).





Please explain this more because I am not sure what you mean by this.
Click to expand...
God is holy, righteous, good, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control, and so forth, which are aspects of God's nature/fruits of the Spirit. God's law is His instructions for how to express, know, love, worship, believe in, and testify about aspects of God's nature. For example, by doing good good works in obedience to God's law, we are expressing God's goodness, knowing God's goodness, expressing our love for God's goodness, worship God's goodness, believing in God's goodness, and testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to God (Matthew 5:16). In other works, God's law is His instructions for how to worship Him through having the experience of expressing His nature. Jesus is the radiance of God's glory and the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), so the way to worship him is also through having the experience of expressing God's nature through following his example of obedience to God's law.

So if what what we are doing is worshiping the being who has that nature, then what difference does it make if we refer refer to that being as YHVH/Jesus or just YHVH? It seems to me that the important thing is to live in a way that worships a being that nature, not the manner that we refer to that being.
 
dizerner said:
I just said what in the second sentence man.
Click to expand...
There are difference sense that we are justified by faith alone. For example, there Bible does not actually specifically stated that we are justified by faith alone, but it does specifically state that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). However, there is a sense that we are just justified by faith alone in the sense that there are no works that we are required to do first in order to become justified, but not in the sense that the faith by which we are justified abolishes our need to obey God's law, but rather that faith upholds it (Romans 3:27-31).
 
Soyeong said:
So if what what we are doing is worshiping the being who has that nature, then what difference does it make if we refer refer to that being as YHVH/Jesus or just YHVH? It seems to me that the important thing is to live in a way that worships a being that nature, not the manner that we refer to that being.
Click to expand...

To a point, but one has to begin with who God really is.
Humanly speaking one can be doing what so many feel are good and nice things but they still don't have the correct Jesus that Paul and Peter preached about.
 
Fred said:
2 Corinthians 11:4b
or you received a different spirit which you have not received
Click to expand...

Paul received the Gospel of the Grace of God, directly from Jesus.
Paul told us that he received it from no man, but from Jesus Himself.

The Gospel is the "preaching of the Cross"....."is the power of God unto Salvation""".

The Gospel is not..."believe that Jesus is God, and you shall be saved".


Jesus is God....Yes, "God manifested in the flesh", but the Gospel is not that specific teaching.

The Gospel : is that God became one of us to offer the BELIEVER eternal restoration back into Himself, spiritually, as born again....= "Grace through Faith".

That's the "Gospel of the Grace of God".
 

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