brightfame52
Active Member
One cannot believe until they are regenerated because before that they are solely in the flesh and can't please God
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
- Start date
brightfame52
Active Member
Rom 8:8 is scripture u ignore
FreeInChrist
Active Member
@brightfame52
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life. Faith grows when one hears or reads God’s word, reflects on it honestly, and willingly trusts it enough to act on it, even amid weakness or doubt. Through conscious choices—such as prayer, repentance, obedience, and perseverance in trials—the believer learns dependence on God rather than the flesh. Over time, these freely made responses shape the heart, allowing faith to mature as trust grounded in lived experience, not compulsion.
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life. Faith grows when one hears or reads God’s word, reflects on it honestly, and willingly trusts it enough to act on it, even amid weakness or doubt. Through conscious choices—such as prayer, repentance, obedience, and perseverance in trials—the believer learns dependence on God rather than the flesh. Over time, these freely made responses shape the heart, allowing faith to mature as trust grounded in lived experience, not compulsion.
brightfame52
Active Member
FreeInChrist
Active Member
living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond
That is what free will allows and encourages. that is why for the explosion of all forms of media teachings.
If not needed, then they would not happen. Are you dyslexic?
brightfame52
Active Member
You are fighting against God:
Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life. Faith grows when one hears or reads God’s word, reflects on it honestly, and willingly trusts it enough to act on it, even amid weakness or doubt. Through conscious choices—such as prayer, repentance, obedience, and perseverance in trials—the believer learns dependence on God rather than the flesh. Over time, these freely made responses shape the heart, allowing faith to mature as trust grounded in lived experience, not compulsion.
Are you saying that Adam was created with fallen sinful flesh?
brightfame52
Active Member
You are fighting against God:
Rom 8:8
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
brightfame52
Active Member
Actually I didn't say that, but Adam sinned after he was created and then the flesh of man became fallen and died into sin. You don't believe that?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life. Faith grows when one hears or reads God’s word, reflects on it honestly, and willingly trusts it enough to act on it, even amid weakness or doubt. Through conscious choices—such as prayer, repentance, obedience, and perseverance in trials—the believer learns dependence on God rather than the flesh. Over time, these freely made responses shape the heart, allowing faith to mature as trust grounded in lived experience, not compulsion.
In my understanding, God created a perfect human being in Adam, in the likeness of God, with the free will to choose good or choose evil. Is that your understanding as well?
And thank you for your willingness to actually engage in a discussion. I really appreciate it.
No, it is not...
Unconditional election means unconditional non-election, people being damned before they sin.
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some angels elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?
IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unconditional, unmerited, election then also means unconditional unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit or sinful condition at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.
What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election!!!
This is what unconditional implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit to being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means everyone was just as acceptable for election as everyone but some did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like GOD at all. IF they were passed over for an evil they did then there is a righteous reason to their being passed over and to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!
IF election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then election by merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is then the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in HIS Son was then the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.
*the beginning:
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
Thus we probably have a precedent in the angels for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected.
And since unconditional election is apparently false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is also wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected in the beginning before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4.
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brightfame52
Active Member
A direct opposing of Rom 8:8
Then what was God's mistake with Adam?
brightfame52
Active Member
Did Adam fall from his upright standing with God an lose innocence and die in his fellowship with God and became dead in sin ?
Please sir, the question I asked was, did God create the perfect mortal human in Adam?
civic
Active Member
Jesus was in the flesh , the Word became flesh , God was manifest in the flesh
Next ……,,,
My answer does not imply any mistake by GOD with Adam or Satan or anyone was ever made.
Satan's mistake was putting his faith, his unproven hope, in the idea that YHWH was a liar and therefore a false god, not worthy of worship, thus self becoming the unforgivable reprobate, destined for hell.
This separated him and his from all those who put their faith, their unproven hope, in YHWH as proclaiming the truth of HIS divinity and HIS gospel of election and salvation from sin thus becoming HIS elect, destined for salvation from sin (if they needed it) to become HIS eternal heavenly Bride.
Adam's mistake was when he rebelled against GOD's call for HIS elect, those who put their faith in HIM, to come out from among the eternally reprobate so HIS judgement upon these eternally evil ones could occur because he thought that his faith was being tested to believe that a loving GOD could damn people for simple unbelief, rejecting that a loving GOD would damn them for unbelief with no chance for them to repent and come to faith, etc, etc. Thus he became a sinner, a sheep gone astray into sin, an elect member of the kingdom of GOD enslaved by sin, needing to be redeemed and sanctified to be able to fulfill GOD's choice of him as HIS future Bride.
Everyone chose their own FATE by their own free will to be an elect or to become eternally unforgivable and then GOD gave the sinful elect LIVES predestined to fulfill our self chosen fates by [our] redemption and sanctification.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life.
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