The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

Studyman said:
Please sir, the question I asked was, did God create the perfect mortal human in Adam?
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ImCo:
EVERYONE created in GOD's image was created perfectly able to fulfill HIS reason and purpose in our creation to become HIS heavenly and eternal Bride.

To be able to fulfill all aspects of a loving marriage, HE created everyone with a free will, that is both able to accept HIS purpose for us or to reject HIM and HIS purpose for us.

It was by our free will that we became sinners, either elect or reprobate by our own decision about HIS proclamation to be our creator and HIS gospel of election and salvation...

Once some of HIS elect fell into the sin of rebellion against the necessity of the damnation of the eternally evil reprobate, HE postponed the fulfillment of their condemnation so that the sinful elect could be taught the holy necessity of their banishment to hell by living with them, Matt 13:27-30, AFTER all sinners were flung into the earth, the sinful elect by Satan, Rev 12:4, and then Satan and his demonic hordes by Michael and the army of GOD, Rev 12:7-9.

Only sinners are born, sown, into this world as mankind: the elect sinners (the sinful people of HIS kingdom) by the Son of Man, Matt 13:38, and the evil reprobate by the devil, Matt 13:38-39.
 
FreeInChrist said:
A person living in the flesh can build and strengthen faith by freely choosing to respond to God’s truth as it is encountered in everyday life.
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freely ? while enslaved to sin so much that those sinners who know the truth always choose the sin they love over the truth, Rom 1:18 to the end unless they receive the grace of GOD that herds them into the right track of mind??? That kind of freedom?

A sinner enslaved to sin has no free will until he is reborn in the spirit of GOD and his free will is restored.
 
Studyman said:
Please sir, the question I asked was, did God create the perfect mortal human in Adam?
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Start a thread about it and I will contribute. My point here is man's flesh is sinful and nothing he does in the flesh pleases God and cant please God. Rom 8:3,8'

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

8 ;So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
I will throw in Rom 7:18

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
 
civic said:
Jesus was in the flesh , the Word became flesh , God was manifest in the flesh

Next ……,,,
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Not sinful flesh like you and I Rom 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

You have the audacity to say there is no such thing as sinful flesh when its right there in the scripture lol
 
brightfame52 said:
Not sinful flesh like you and I Rom 8:3

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

You have the audacity to say there is no such thing as sinful flesh when its right there in the scripture lol
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He was sinless- it had nothing to do with "flesh ".

flesh is not sinful, people are which comes from the immaterial part of man the soul/mind.

the body, the flesh becomes an instrument to act out sin that originates in the mind/soul of man.

hope this helps !!!
 
TedT said:
freely ? while enslaved to sin so much that those sinners who know the truth always choose the sin they love over the truth, Rom 1:18 to the end unless they receive the grace of GOD that herds them into the right track of mind??? That kind of freedom?

A sinner enslaved to sin has no free will until he is reborn in the spirit of GOD and his free will is restored.
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Yes... "freely", because nothing external prevents the sinner from responding; the obstacle lies in the sinner’s own desires.

Do not misunderstand me: a free-will framework does not deny bondage to sin. It defines that bondage differently.

Enslavement refers to corrupted desire, not the annihilation of moral agency.

Romans 1 presents humanity as culpably resisting known truth, not as being incapable of responding to it.

Grace, in this view, is not an irresistible act that regenerates prior to faith, but the truth of God made known, which may be resisted or received.

Thus, when it is said that a person “freely responds,” this accords with John 3:19: “The Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.”

This is still freedom—tragically misused.

When I say “freely choosing to respond to God’s truth,” I mean that the sinner possesses native ability: the capacity to hear God’s truth and either resist it or respond in faith.

I do not hold that regeneration precedes faith. Rather, regeneration follows faith, and no prior act of irresistible grace is required to make belief possible.
 
TedT said:
My answer does not imply any mistake by GOD with Adam or Satan or anyone was ever made.

Satan's mistake was putting his faith, his unproven hope, in the idea that YHWH was a liar and therefore a false god, not worthy of worship, thus self becoming the unforgivable reprobate, destined for hell.

This separated him and his from all those who put their faith, their unproven hope, in YHWH as proclaiming the truth of HIS divinity and HIS gospel of election and salvation from sin thus becoming HIS elect, destined for salvation from sin (if they needed it) to become HIS eternal heavenly Bride.

Adam's mistake was when he rebelled against GOD's call for HIS elect, those who put their faith in HIM, to come out from among the eternally reprobate so HIS judgement upon these eternally evil ones could occur because he thought that his faith was being tested to believe that a loving GOD could damn people for simple unbelief, rejecting that a loving GOD would damn them for unbelief with no chance for them to repent and come to faith, etc, etc. Thus he became a sinner, a sheep gone astray into sin, an elect member of the kingdom of GOD enslaved by sin, needing to be redeemed and sanctified to be able to fulfill GOD's choice of him as HIS future Bride.

Everyone chose their own FATE by their own free will to be an elect or to become eternally unforgivable and then GOD gave the sinful elect LIVES predestined to fulfill our self chosen fates by [our] redemption and sanctification.
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Where is it written that Adam came into contact with satan? It was a simple question, "was Adam created by God as the perfect human".

I'm surprised at your answer.
 
brightfame52 said:
One cannot believe until they are regenerated because before that they are solely in the flesh and can't please God
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Wrong

One must believe to be regenerated

John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 3:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Acts 15:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

Believe to be made a child of God

John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

be Born again through faith in the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 5:4–5For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
brightfame52 said:
Rom 8:8 is scripture u ignore
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Once again you wrongly ignore scripture.

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB 95) — 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

The fact is one can believe and then be regenerated

John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

God is pleased when one has faith in him and rewards them

Rom 8:8 does not teach what you think.

In the flesh is a reference to being controlled by the flesh

And God is pleased by those who believe

Hebrews 11:6 (NASB 95) — 6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
 
TomL said:
Wrong
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Right Rom8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. They that are in the flesh are the unregenerate

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Biblehttps://biblehub.com/commentaries/gill/romans/8.htm
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So then they that are in the flesh,.... They that are in the flesh are the same who are said to be after it, Romans 8:5, and are there described. Such
cannot please God; men, whilst unregenerate, and as such, cannot please God;
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Studyman said:
Where is it written that Adam came into contact with satan? It was a simple question, "was Adam created by God as the perfect human".

I'm surprised at your answer.
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Where in my answer do you think I suppose that Adam came into contact with Satan and not just his ideas???

The question is indeed simple but the answer is not because it challenges the base of all Christian theology, ie, that we are created here on earth.
 
brightfame52 said:
Right Rom8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. They that are in the flesh are the unregenerate
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Wrong

Scripture clearly shows One must believe to be regenerated

John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Did they not believe before receiving the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Were they not sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing?

Ephesians 3:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Is it not Christ dwelling in your faith through faith?

Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Does the text not speak of receiving the Spirit by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Is the promise of the Spirit not fulfilled by having faith?

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Was the gift of the Spirit not after believing?

Acts 15:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

Believe to be made a child of God

John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

be Born again through faith in the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 5:4–5For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Finally God is pleased when men believe

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

When they believe they are regenerated, as multiple verses show, and if they do not first believe, they cannot be regenerated.

John 3:36 (NASB 95) — 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
 
Last edited:
brightfame52 said:
Rom 8:8
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Again

Scripture clearly shows One must believe to be regenerated

John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Did they not believe before receiving the Spirit?

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB 95) — 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Were they not sealed with the Holy Spirit after believing?

Ephesians 3:16–17 (NASB 95) — 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

Is it not Christ dwelling in your faith through faith?

Galatians 3:2 (NASB 95) — 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Does the text not speak of receiving the Spirit by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5 (NASB 95) — 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:14 (NASB 95) — 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Is the promise of the Spirit not fulfilled by having faith?

Acts 11:15–17 (NASB 95) — 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

Was the gift of the Spirit not after believing?

Acts 15:7–8 (NASB 95) — 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

Believe to be made a child of God

John 1:12 (NASB 95) — 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

be Born again through faith in the word of God.

1 Pet 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 5:4–5For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Finally God is pleased when men believe

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

When they believe they are regenerated, as multiple verses show, and if they do not first believe, they cannot be regenerated.

John 3:36 (NASB 95) — 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
 

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