And not during the Old Testament, refuting Calvinism's belief that regeneration preceeds faith
The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective
- Thread starter Pancho Frijoles
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brightfame52
Active Member
So they were regenerated first so that they were not in the flesh when they believed. Them in the flesh cant please God
Doug Brents
Active Member
You have yet to prove that with Scripture. All you have presented is your opinions and suppositions. Demonstrate your doctrine with Scripture.
brightfame52
Active Member
Believers in Jesus time were born of God , regenerated and that was before Pentecost, when the Spirit was given. So technically that was still under the old covenant. That destroys your foolish talk that no one was born of God b4 Pentecost. lol
Doug Brents
Active Member
I will say that he is right that Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were all regenerated during their lifetimes, but not until after they exhibited their faith. As Heb 11 tells us, Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness (not: his righteousness was rewarded with faith from God).
FreeInChrist
Active Member
He said they which received Him , believed on His Name Had been born of God.
Belief came first, then the birth.
But as many as received him, (this receiving Him is belief/faith in Him) to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
(Yes, in the context of John 1:12, "received" implies a welcoming and acceptance of Jesus, which is closely tied to belief and faith in Him. This verse indicates that those who receive Him and believe in His name are given the right to become children of God)
SO ONCE AGAIN FAITH COMES FIRST.
AFTER THEY BELIEVED. AFTER THEY HAD FAITH. then they are born again.
John 7:36–39 — New American Standard Bible (1995) (NASB95)
36 “What is this statement that He said, ‘You will seek Me, and will not find Me; and where I am, you cannot come’?”37 Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
38 “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ”
Because you, @brightfame52 will come back saying that what I say is wrong.... here is frpm an expert with no flesh (pardon the pun) in the forum game.
I went and asked and copied this to you from a study note I got from Elior…
Are these believers regenerated yet?
And I was told They are true believers, but not yet New-Covenant regenerated in the full sense. They have the required Faith, The necessary Repentance, and God-given spiritual life (like Abraham, David, etc.)
But they do not yet have The indwelling Holy Spirit, The new-creation reality, or The “living water flowing out” experience
That only begins after Jesus is glorified upon His death, resurrection, ascension.
Jesus is not describing what believers already have. He is describing what believers will receive.
Jesus said, “He who believes… will have rivers of living water flowing from within.”
That “flowing” is the Holy Spirit indwelling, not merely believing.
Even John confirms it when he said “The Spirit was not yet given…”
So the living water = the Spirit poured out at Pentecost.
And he finished up with
So does John 7:38 mean they are already regenerated? No.
It means: “Anyone who believes in Me will receive the Spirit and when they do, living water will flow from inside them.”That happens after Jesus is glorified.
SO Faith comes first THEN Regeneration in the New-Covenant sense comes at Pentecost
That perfectly fits the rest of Scripture.
39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
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Nope, there was no regeneration in the Old Testament and no regeneration until men believed in the glorified Christ.
Ezekiel 36:22–28 (NASB 95) — 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Not till they believed in a glorified Christ
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
brightfame52
Active Member
Lol that makes my point.
Stated nowhere
And the permanent indwelling of the Spirit is considered a future happenstance.
Ezekiel 36:22–28 (NASB 95) — 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
brightfame52
Active Member
Right so people were born again regenerated under the law and in the ot times. So they had to be born again, not in the flesh when they pleased God. My point is that they which be in the flesh cant please God according to Rom 8:7-8
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus disciples and John the baptist were under the OT Law and they were born of God. Jn 1:12-13
brightfame52
Active Member
Jesus wasnt glorified when the disciples believed in Him according to Jn 1:12-13
Doug Brents
Active Member
You like to cut only the parts of other people's statements that you agree with, and ignore the qualifying parts that change the meaning of what you quote. But I am not surprised, because you do the same with Scripture.
The full statement I made was:
"I will say that he is right that Abraham, Moses, David, etc. were all regenerated during their lifetimes, but not until after they exhibited their faith."
Their faith was exhibited before they were regenerated. And they were regenerated only through God's knowledge that Jesus would come in the fullness of time and pay the price for all sin, both those who came after Him, and those who came before.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Yes, it was future to all those who wrote in the OT, and to all those depicted in the Gospels. But after Jesus' resurrection, it is current and past. Notice Rom 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
"Have", present tense, the Spirit of Christ. I have the Spirit of Christ dwelling within me. I am not waiting for the resurrection to receive Him.
brightfame52
Active Member
You made my point. All the prophets were regenerated, the Spirit of Christ indwelt them so they belonged to Christ 1 Pet 1:10-11
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
They which have the Spirit of Christ in them are not in the flesh according to Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Now back to my original point, they which are in the flesh, unregenerate cannot please God, which Faith does Heb 11:6
So everyone in the OT that had Faith Heb 11 had been regenerated.
Doug Brents
Active Member
You are trying to make the point (and insinuating that I agree with you) that they were regenerated before they were born. They were not. They sinned and were cut off from God. But through their faith they were given salvation though Christ Jesus (even though He came after them).
You are constantly trying to make the (false) point that the "elect" are born righteous and never fall into unrighteousness. That is completely false. Everyone is unrighteous (1 Cor 6:11), and only those who surrender to God in faith receive forgiveness and are regenerated.
brightfame52
Active Member
Man I dont know what in the world you talking about. All I know is that the unregenerate in the flesh cant please God, and doesn't matter if ot or nt times, flesh is the flesh
It is the indwelling of the Spirit that awaits the glorification of Christ
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
And seeing as they believed before Christ's glorification shows they were not regenerated by the indwelling of the Spirit before faith.
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