The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

False, all the saints of the ot with faith were regenerated. Moses had Faith in Christ and suffered for His cause, you telling me he wasnt regenerated Heb 11:24-26

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Faith pleases God and them in the flesh cant please God. So everyone with Faith had to be regenerated.
You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.
 
@brightfame52 ,

As @Doug Brents said...You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.

Is perfectly true. If it was not then NO ONE would ever have been told to chose. For it is you you always say once regenerated, then comes the faith and no choice is ever needed according to you... YET the following is proof from the bible that you are backwards.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO #5, #7, #8, AND ESPECIALLY #9

God Calling People to Choose

1. Deuteronomy 30:19

“I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.”

God explicitly commands a choice.

2. Joshua 24:15

Choose this day whom you will serve… but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

3. Ezekiel 18:30–32

“Repent and turn from all your transgressions… Why will you die?Turn and live!

God pleads for them to change direction.

4. Isaiah 55:6–7

Seek the LORD while he may be found… Let the wicked forsake his way…”

5. Proverbs 1:29

“Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD…”

God says people actively refuse Him.


Jesus Calling People to Choose

6. Matthew 7:13–14


Enter by the narrow gate… the gate is wide that leads to destruction… and those who enter by it are many.”

A direct call to choose which gate.

7. Matthew 23:37


“I wanted to gather your children… but you were not willing.”

Jesus places the refusal on them.

8. John 5:40

You refuse to come to Me that you may have life.”

Not God’s refusal — theirs.

9. John 7:17

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know…”

The will of the person matters.


10. John 12:36


Believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light.

A command requiring a choice.

11. Luke 13:34

“I wanted to gather you… but you were not willing.


Repeated again AND choice rejected.


Apostles Calling People to Choose


12. Acts 2:40

Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

13. Acts 3:19


Repent therefore and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.”

14. Acts 17:30

“God now commands all people everywhere to repent.”

15. Romans 10:9


“If you confess… and you believe… you will be saved.”

Two human actions.

16. 2 Corinthians 5:20


“We implore you on behalf of Christ: be reconciled to God.

Imploring makes no sense without choice.

17. Revelation 22:17


“Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life freely.

Wishing, coming, taking — all voluntary.


If people were born unable to choose, then God would not say “choose”, Jesus would not say “you were not willing”, and Scripture would not say “you refused

The Bible constantly puts responsibility on the human will.
 
@brightfame52 ,

As @Doug Brents said...You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.

Is perfectly true. If it was not then NO ONE would ever have been told to chose. For it is you you always say once regenerated, then comes the faith and no choice is ever needed according to you... YET the following is proof from the bible that you are backwards.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO #5, #7, #8, AND ESPECIALLY #9

God Calling People to Choose

1. Deuteronomy 30:19

“I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.”

God explicitly commands a choice.

2. Joshua 24:15

Choose this day whom you will serve… but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

3. Ezekiel 18:30–32

“Repent and turn from all your transgressions… Why will you die?Turn and live!

God pleads for them to change direction.

4. Isaiah 55:6–7

Seek the LORD while he may be found… Let the wicked forsake his way…”

5. Proverbs 1:29

“Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD…”

God says people actively refuse Him.


Jesus Calling People to Choose

6. Matthew 7:13–14


Enter by the narrow gate… the gate is wide that leads to destruction… and those who enter by it are many.”

A direct call to choose which gate.

7. Matthew 23:37


“I wanted to gather your children… but you were not willing.”

Jesus places the refusal on them.

8. John 5:40

You refuse to come to Me that you may have life.”

Not God’s refusal — theirs.

9. John 7:17

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know…”

The will of the person matters.

10. John 12:36


Believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light.

A command requiring a choice.

11. Luke 13:34

“I wanted to gather you… but you were not willing.


Repeated again AND choice rejected.

Apostles Calling People to Choose


12. Acts 2:40

Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

13. Acts 3:19


Repent therefore and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.”

14. Acts 17:30

“God now commands all people everywhere to repent.”

15. Romans 10:9


“If you confess… and you believe… you will be saved.”

Two human actions.

16. 2 Corinthians 5:20


“We implore you on behalf of Christ: be reconciled to God.

Imploring makes no sense without choice.

17. Revelation 22:17


“Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life freely.

Wishing, coming, taking — all voluntary.


If people were born unable to choose, then God would not say “choose”, Jesus would not say “you were not willing”, and Scripture would not say “you refused

The Bible constantly puts responsibility on the human will.
@brightfame52 ,
I will add to this #18. John 12:42-43
"Nevertheless many, even of the rulers, believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, so that they would not be excommunicated from the synagogue; 43 for they loved the approval of people rather than the approval of God."

It is obvious that condemnation still resides upon these people even though they "believed", because they were not willing to take a physical step of obedience to God and confess Him publicly. They loved the approval of men more than the approval of God, and so refused to take the step that would have put them in God's favor.
 
You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.
And that not until the glorification of Christ

John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
 
You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.
Do I have this backwards? Them in the flesh cannot please God and cant obey God Rom 8:7-8. The natural man is in the flesh.
 
@brightfame52 ,

As @Doug Brents said...You have it backwards. You are trying to say that regeneration comes first, and then faith is either given by God, or demonstrated by the person (not sure which of these you believe). But that is wrong. Those that had faith became regenerated. The faith came first, and then the regeneration.

Is perfectly true. If it was not then NO ONE would ever have been told to chose. For it is you you always say once regenerated, then comes the faith and no choice is ever needed according to you... YET the following is proof from the bible that you are backwards.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO #5, #7, #8, AND ESPECIALLY #9

God Calling People to Choose

1. Deuteronomy 30:19

“I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live.”

God explicitly commands a choice.

2. Joshua 24:15

Choose this day whom you will serve… but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

3. Ezekiel 18:30–32

“Repent and turn from all your transgressions… Why will you die?Turn and live!

God pleads for them to change direction.

4. Isaiah 55:6–7

Seek the LORD while he may be found… Let the wicked forsake his way…”

5. Proverbs 1:29

“Because they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD…”

God says people actively refuse Him.


Jesus Calling People to Choose

6. Matthew 7:13–14


Enter by the narrow gate… the gate is wide that leads to destruction… and those who enter by it are many.”

A direct call to choose which gate.

7. Matthew 23:37


“I wanted to gather your children… but you were not willing.”

Jesus places the refusal on them.

8. John 5:40

You refuse to come to Me that you may have life.”

Not God’s refusal — theirs.

9. John 7:17

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know…”

The will of the person matters.

10. John 12:36


Believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light.

A command requiring a choice.

11. Luke 13:34

“I wanted to gather you… but you were not willing.


Repeated again AND choice rejected.

Apostles Calling People to Choose


12. Acts 2:40

Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

13. Acts 3:19


Repent therefore and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.”

14. Acts 17:30

“God now commands all people everywhere to repent.”

15. Romans 10:9


“If you confess… and you believe… you will be saved.”

Two human actions.

16. 2 Corinthians 5:20


“We implore you on behalf of Christ: be reconciled to God.

Imploring makes no sense without choice.

17. Revelation 22:17


“Let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life freely.

Wishing, coming, taking — all voluntary.


If people were born unable to choose, then God would not say “choose”, Jesus would not say “you were not willing”, and Scripture would not say “you refused

The Bible constantly puts responsibility on the human will.
They which are in the flesh, which the unregenerate are, cannot please God, they cant be subject to God Rom 8:7-8 their mind is enmity against God.
 
Them which are in the flesh cant please God. Rom 8:7-8
Not all are controlled by the flesh

WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?

The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).

Hello, that in itself refutes the Calvinist idea of total inability.

Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6)

Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology


and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8)

Contra Calvinism/Calvinist-type theology

And Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23).

Both clearly dispute the Calvinist/Calvinist-type theology of all men having a natural hatred toward God.

Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).

Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).

Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).

Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.

Some contrary examples to total depravity

In Genesis 4, the concept of it is called into question.

After Cain became angry because God had accepted Abel’s offering and had not accepted his offering, God told Cain that sin was knocking at the door and that he should not allow it to rule over him, least it become his master (see Genesis 4:6-7).

God did not deal with Cain as if he were totally depraved. On the contrary, God instructed Cain to rule over this sin that was knocking at the door. The Bible tells us that Cain murdered his brother not because he was totally depraved, but because his deeds were evil and his brother’s was righteous.

For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous. (1 John 3:10-11)

If all humanity were totally depraved, then this would include Abel, yet the apostle John tells us that Abel’s works were righteous. Remember the definition of depravity is a very evil quality or way of behaving: an evil or immoral act. The Bible never describes Abel in this way. On the contrary, the Bible repeatedly describes Abel and his works as righteous.

If Cain and Abel had been totally depraved, Cain would have been unable to rule over the sin knocking at the door, and Abel would not have done that which was righteous.

In the gospels, the Lord Jesus Christ declared that Abel was righteous (Matthew 23:35) and the writer of Hebrews tells us: Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. (Hebrews 11:4)

No matter how you stack it, the statement, “Abel obtained witness that he was righteous,” completely dismantles any concept of total depravity: a theology that does not take into account the testimony of scripture concerning the real people who lived for God.

If the doctrine of total depravity were true, it would be true of everyone, but what about those in scripture who sought after God?

WHAT ABOUT ENOCH?

The Bible says, Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:24). The author of Hebrews tells us: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.(Hebrews 11:4)

Enoch was such a man of God, who pleased God, he never died! Jude tells us that Enoch prophesied of the coming of the Lord as well (Jude 1:14).

WHAT ABOUT NOAH?

The Bible says Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God (Genesis 6:9). Noah was righteous in the sight of the Lord (Genesis 7:1) and in Ezekiel, God mentions Noah along with Daniel and Job as righteous (Ezekiel 14:14, 20).

In the New Testament, the apostle Peter refers to Noah as a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and the writer of Hebrews testifies of Noah’s righteousness as well.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear (the fear of the Lord), prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became the heir of the righteousness which is by faith (Hebrews 11:7).

WHAT ABOUT ABRAHAM?

The scriptures tells us, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:3, 9, 22; Galatians 3; 6; James 2:23).

Abraham had integrity of heart (Genesis 20:5-6) and a faithful heart towards God(Nehemiah 9:7, 8) and Abraham is called the friend of God (2 Chronicles 20:7; Isaiah 41:8; James 2:23). Throughout scripture God is referred to as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Matthew 32:22; Mark 12:26; Luke 20:37; Acts 3:13; 7:32).

Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 8:56) and God’s promise to Abraham was to bless all the nations through his seed: Jesus Christ (Acts 3:25; Galatians 3:16).

Abraham is called the father of faith and the father of all who believe (Romans 4:16; Galatians 3:7, 9, 29) and the blessing of Abraham comes on the Gentiles through faith in Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:14).

Abraham was a man of faith who obeyed and feared God (Genesis 22: 12; 26:5; Hebrews 11:8). We see also that Isaac and Jacob were men of faith who feared the Lord and obeyed him as well.

Also, the apostle Peter refers to Sarah, Abraham’s wife, as an example of holy women, who trusted God, by adorning themselves with a meek and quite spirit (1 Peter 3:4-6).

Lot, Abraham’s nephew, also was a righteous man.

In 2 Peter 2:7-10, the apostle Peter references Lot as an example of how the Lord is able to deliver the godly out of temptations. Peter calls Lot a just and righteous man whom the Lord delivered from the fitly lifestyle of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrha.

We also read of others in the scriptures, who feared God, before we ever get to Moses and the Exodus of Israel from Egypt. For example the Hebrew midwives feared God and refused to obey the King of Egypt (Exodus 1:17) and because they feared the Lord, many lives of Hebrew children were spared, and God gave the midwives familes (Exodus 1:20-21).

WHAT ABOUT JOSEPH, MOSES, JOSHUA, AND CALEB?

Joseph fled from sin when he was tempted by Potiphar’s wife (Genesis 39:7-12) and forgave his brothers who betrayed him.

Moses is called the man of God (Deuteronomy 33:1; Psalm 90:1; 1 Chronicles 23;14) and was a very humble man (Numbers 12:3) and interceded for Israel seeking God’s forgiveness and favor (Exodus 32:11). Moses feared the Lord (Deuteronomy 9:16-29) and was faithful in God’s house (Numbers 12:7; Hebrews 3:5).

Furthermore, the author of Hebrews says, By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned (Hebrews 11:24-29).

Moses’ successor, Joshua, was chosen by God to lead the children of Israel into the Promised Land because he was a man who sought God, feared God, and trusted God. Also the mantle which God had placed on Moses was transferred to Joshua before he led Israel into the Promised land (Deuteronomy 31:14, 23; 34:9).

During the time of Moses we read of others like Caleb, who along with Joshua were the only 2 among the 12 spies who trusted God and because of their faith they were rewarded by God. In fact God said of the following about Caleb:

But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land where into he went; and his seed shall possess it (Numbers 14:24).

WHAT ABOUT PHINEHAS AND OTHERS?

We also read of Phinehas, who was of priestly descent. He was zealous for God’s holy justice and turned God’s wrath away from the children of Israel (Numbers 25:7-13) and his zeal for God was counted as righteousness to him and to his generations (Psalm 106:30-31). God gave to him and his descendants a covenant of peace because he was jealous with zeal for the Lord.

Job also was a righteous man (Ezekiel 14:14, 20). In fact the Bible says he was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil (Job 1:1). Job was such a godly man that God even showcased him in the face of Satan (Job 1:8). Job was God’s servant, a man accepted by God (Job 42:7-8) and an example of patience (James 5:10-11) and he learned that God is merciful and compassionate.

As we venture through the scriptures we read of God’s servants such as Gideon, Deborah, Ruth, Naomi, Boaz, Hannah, Samuel, Jonathan, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Nehemiah, Ezra, Esther and others who feared God, sought him, and were righteous in his sight.
 
And that not until the glorification of Christ

John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Jesus is today glorified, and His Spirit dwells within those who have surrendered to Him in faith. The Spirit was given when Jesus was Glorified at (or before (John 13:31-32)) His death.
 
John 7:38–39 (NASB 95) — 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ ” 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Did not Jesus say that they which had received Him, believed on His Name had been born of God Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So that would included them tht believed in Him in Jn 7:38 so they were already regenerated
 
You keep saying that stupidity that has already been demonstrated to be foolishness through Scripture. Give it up, you have been proven wrong.
Perfect example of a cult brainwashing. Cannot see before or after what they believe to be the only truth.

Do seek out any other verses for backup.

This one has been proven so wrong so many times multiple times in multiple days and still sticks to it.
 
Them which are in the flesh cant please God. Rom 8:7-8
There are those who can believe, and that pleases God.

Gen 15:6Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Rom 4:3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Gal 3:6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
James 2:23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
John 20:29Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
Acts 16:34And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household.
Exod 14:31When Israel saw the great power which the Lord had used against the Egyptians, the people feared the Lord, and they believed in the Lord and in His servant Moses.
Rom 4:24but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,
1 John 5:10The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son.
Acts 10:43Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
Eph 1:13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
omise,
John 1:12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Acts 13:39and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.
Rom 5:1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
 
Did not Jesus say that they which had received Him, believed on His Name had been born of God Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

So that would included them tht believed in Him in Jn 7:38 so they were already regenerated
After receiving, i.e., believing, refuting your theology
 
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