The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

civic said:
@TomL has demonstrated how they contradict your personal beliefs.
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No they have not.
What those quotes have shown is that faith is necessary to be saved.
We all agree on that.
What those quotes from Scripture do not say is what is needed for man to have faith.

In the view of @brightfame52, in order to have faith man needs a special act from God. And that is absolutley true and consistent with many other pieces from Scripture.
I insist: we are going in circles…and stressing academic differences when, in fact, we just don’t have the faintest idea of what is going on in man’s heart when faith appears, let alone God’s sovereign mind.
 
brightfame52 said:
I agree with the verses
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If that were true, you would deny one must be regenerated before he can believe

Nothing but bald denial and a failure to address the verses.

The verses, on the other hand, show there is no life apart from first believing.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
 
Pancho Frijoles said:
No they have not.
What those quotes have shown is that faith is necessary to be saved.
We all agree on that.
What those quotes from Scripture do not say is what is needed for man to have faith.

In the view of @brightfame52, in order to have faith man needs a special act from God. And that is absolutley true and consistent with many other pieces from Scripture.
I insist: we are going in circles…and stressing academic differences when, in fact, we just don’t have the faintest idea of what is going on in man’s heart when faith appears, let alone God’s sovereign mind.
Click to expand...
What you totally miss is that Calvinists state man must be regenerated—made alive—before he can believe.

That is contrary to scripture

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
 
brightfame52 said:
You give it up
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You are the one running from the verses

Your theology holds you must first be made alive before you can believe.

But the following verses show you cannot be made alive until you believe in Christ, refuting your theology.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
 
TomL said:
spam verses
Click to expand...

Please don't bump my old posts, if you want to address the point make a new topic or say it on your own.

I am not active here, and this way I can know when someone actually meaningfully responds.
 
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Free Will allows one to accept or reject. John 5:40 explains that perfectly.
 
brightfame52 said:
I believe those verses
Click to expand...
Then you do not believe regeneration, being made alive, precedes faith.

But the following verses show you cannot be made alive until you believe in Christ, refuting your theology.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who refuses to believe will be condemned.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life
 
Diserner said:
Of course I'm saddened you accept Flower's deceptions in his denial of our need for God's internal grace, and embrace his proposition of self-righteousness that humans do not need this help from God.

However, please realize, the point here is not whether you agree with Flowers, but whether civic has slandered and falsely accused my depiction of what Dr. Flowers actually says, and that is the subject currently.
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Flowers does not deny grace is needed.

But in talking about internal grace, you are speaking of regeneration or some likeness.

Regeneration, however, is only for those who already believe.

He clearly, however, does not teach self-righteousness.
 
brightfame52 said:
Those verses don't deny that, exegete them and show how
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Can you not read with understanding?

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

He that believeth not does not see life. Believing must exist to receive life

Your doctrine is totally contrary to the scripture.
 
TomL said:
Flowers does not deny grace is needed.

But in talking about internal grace, you are speaking of regeneration or some likeness.

Regeneration, however, is only for those who already believe.

He clearly, however, does not teach self-righteousness.
Click to expand...
Correct he does not and believes God uses the gospel call as a means
 
synergy said:
I agree. God has already graced each and every one of us with a mind, will, conscience, heart that can be receptive to the word of God. There is no extra zappings required for one to come to faith.

Hearing the word of God is the means by which we come to faith in Christ. If that's what Flowers means then I agree.
Click to expand...
Yes that’s what he believes and so do I :)
 
TomL said:
Regeneration, however, is only for those who already believe.
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False regeneration is for them Christ died for and erased their sins debt and guilt. Since the wages of sin which is death has been satisfied, He gives them eternal life which commences with regeneration, a Spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.
 
FreeInChrist said:
John 5:40 (ESV) — 40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

Free Will allows one to accept or reject. John 5:40 explains that perfectly.
Click to expand...
brightfame52 said:
That verse tells me that man is a servant of sin, Jesus says next that no man can come to Him Jn :44, 65 and Jn 5:40 is evidence
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Not in wildest dreams.....

Yet you refuse to come says they were asked or invited and said no. The reason if it was that they were a servant of sin is because they were not going to give up what they so enjoyed.....

IT WAS THEIR CHOICE and no way you spin it can make it any different
 

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