The Unconditional Election Debate: An Universalist Perspective

[TomL]

False regeneration is for them Christ died for and erased their sins debt and guilt. Since the wages of sin which is death has been satisfied, He gives them eternal life which commences with regeneration, a Spiritual resurrection from spiritual death.

All who believe are given eternal life

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.
1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

thus all who believe are given regeneration

 

[brightfame52]

All who believe are given eternal life

Eternal life is given in order to know and believe Jn 17:2-3

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[TomL]

Eternal life is given in order to know and believe Jn 17:2-3

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Nope

You have it backwards

One must know and believe before receiving eternal life


John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

 

[Predestined]

I’m going to delete this last response from both of you as I received complaints. It might be better if you ignore each other if you cannot get along.

 

[brightfame52]

Nope

You have it backwards

No it's right, Eternal life is given first so that one may know the True God and Jesus Christ by Faith. That's why it's written here Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jesus is saying that the one believing on him, has as in is possessing eternal life

 

[TomL]

No it's right, Eternal life is given first so that one may know the True God and Jesus Christ by Faith. That's why it's written here Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jesus is saying that the one believing on him, has as in is possessing eternal life

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

Nor does any verse state those who do not believe get eternal life.

And you just ignore these, which show faith precedes eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

You must possess eternal life in order to believe on Christ

 

[TomL]

You must possess eternal life in order to believe on Christ

You ignore scripture once again

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

Nor does any verse state those who do not believe get eternal life.

And you just ignore these, which show faith precedes eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[brightfame52]

You ignore scripture once again

No I havent

 

[TedT]

Unconditional election means unconditional non-election, which also means, people being damned before they sin.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?

IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unconditional, unmerited, election then also means unconditional unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit or sinful condition at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.

What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election!!!

[ASIDE: It is entirely possible that the decision for some to receive unconditional unmerited election and others to receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven when the non-elect were subject to a decision that was NOT loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.]


This is what unconditional implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit to being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means everyone was just as acceptable for election as everyone but some did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like GOD at all. IF they were passed over for an evil they did then there is a righteous reason to their being passed over and to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!

IF election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then election by merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is then the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in HIS Son was then the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.

*the beginning:
1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Thus we probably have a precedent in the angels for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected.

And since unconditional election is apparently false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is also wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected in the beginning before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4.

 

[TomL]

No I havent

Yeah you have

You ignore scripture once again

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

Nor does any verse state those who do not believe get eternal life.

And you just ignore these, which show faith precedes eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[brightfame52]

Yeah you have

No I havent

 

[TomL]

No I havent

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

Nor does any verse state those who do not believe get eternal life.

And you just ignore these, which show faith precedes eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Further those who do not believe will not see life

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[Diserner]

I’m going to delete this last response from both of you as I received complaints. It might be better if you ignore each other if you cannot get along.

You've been ( deleted rule 1 and 2f violation)


Rules List:
1.All members are required to read, ensure they understand, and comply with the Rules & Guidelines at all times ("Rules"). The Rules apply to all communications made on this web site. Any failure to comply with the Rules may result in a post being edited or deleted and possibly the offending account receiving a warning, temporary suspension, or permanent ban. Do not impersonate a moderator. Members are not moderators and should not impersonate or act as though they are. This includes issuing warnings, referencing rule violations as if in an official capacity, or directing others to comply with the rules. If you believe a rule has been broken, use the Report feature and allow the moderators to handle it. Moderators may intervene to maintain order. If doctrinal debates become disruptive, moderators reserve the right to issue warnings, remove posts, or temporarily close threads to prevent unnecessary strife. Respect the role of moderators. Moderators have the final say in rule enforcement, working to ensure that discussions remain constructive and in line with the vision and purpose of the BAM forums. Publicly debating or criticizing moderator actions within the thread is not allowed. If you have concerns, contact the moderation team privately.


2f-Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christians. Please privately contact the Berean Board Team to voice your concern and not in public. If you have an issue with any member or moderator please use the report function below the post and address it to the Administrator of the forum.

 

[Predestined]

I think you should do what's morally right, instead of pleasing whoever complains to you.

You've been abusive to me on this forum for merely standing for the truth, and you should take that to heart.

Whose truth are we talking about here? yours, Toms, mine or Jesus ?

I did what was right and deleted the negative posts according to the rules on the forum. You must have me confused with another moderator. I have not been abusive to you or any other member on the forum.

 

[civic]

Whose truth are we talking about here? yours, Toms, mine or Jesus ?

I did what was right and deleted the negative posts according to the rules on the forum. You must have me confused with another moderator. I have not been abusive to you or any other member on the forum.

He might be mistaking you for the @Administrator or me.

 

[brightfame52]

Sorry but the verse does not state one gets everlasting life so they can believe.

They dont say one does not get everlasting life so they can believe since you looking for sound bites

 

[TomL]

They dont say one does not get everlasting life so they can believe since you looking for sound bites

That is a silly argument which ignores scripture showing faith precedes eternal life.

John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Further it shows that if one does not believe they cannot gain.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe

 

[brightfame52]

That is a silly argument which ignores scripture showing faith precedes eternal life.

Ive shown you plenty of scripture for that, whats silly is now you resort to sound bites

 

[TomL]

Ive shown you plenty of scripture for that, whats silly is now you resort to sound bites

No you did not.

You posted but one verse which did not teach what you claim


Jn 6 47

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Jesus is saying that the one believing on him, has as in is possessing eternal life

It does not state one gets eternal life to believe

and then you ignore all these


John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

John 3:15–16 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

1 John 5:11–13 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Further it shows that if one does not believe they cannot gain.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24 Thus I said to you that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.”

1 John 5:12 The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

1 John 5:10–13 (The one who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. The one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning his Son.) And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.

So scripture refutes Calvinism’s belief that unbelievers may be given life so that they may believe