The Trinity made easy

[praise_yeshua]

Yes and Trinitarians and Unitarians are both Monotheists.

I know they hate the words of Jesus....

Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

It must really hurt to know they're are dependent upon Jesus.... You know this "idol" that claim He is.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Here is where your definitions are wrong

1- monotheists believe there is One God
2- polytheists believe there is more than One God.

Hi Civic and readers in general

Imagine you go back in the time machine to ancient Athens and meet three persons buying goods in the market of the city.
You approach each of them and ask them about their religious convictions.

1. The first is a housewife and says she worships Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Hermes, Athena, Hades, Poseidon, Hephaestus, Ares, Apollos, Morpheus and Dyonisius. She seeks to please all of them, prays to all of them, and fears the judgement of all of them.
2. The second one is a sailor and he says he worships Zeus and Poseidon. He seeks to please those two, prays only to those two and fears the judgement of only those two.
3. The third is a poet and says he worships only Zeus. He seeks to please only him, prays only to him and fears the judgement of him only.

Which of the three is monotheist and why?

 

[civic]

Hi Civic and readers in general

Imagine you go back in the time machine to ancient Athens and meet three persons buying goods in the market of the city.
You approach each of them and ask them about their religious convictions.

1. The first is a housewife and says she worships Zeus, Hera, Aphrodite, Hermes, Athena, Hades, Poseidon, Hephaestus, Ares, Apollos, Morpheus and Dyonisius. She seeks to please all of them, prays to all of them, and fears the judgement of all of them.
2. The second one is a sailor and he says he worships Zeus and Poseidon. He seeks to please those two, prays only to those two and fears the judgement of only those two.
3. The third is a poet and says he worships only Zeus. He seeks to please only him, prays only to him and fears the judgement of him only.

Which of the three is monotheist and why?

None as all are idols.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

None as all are idols.

Being idols or not has nothing to do with the definition of monotheist or polytheist.
Whether you agree with such god or his commandments or not has nothing to do with the definition.
If the poet believes there is only one god, Zeus, he is a monotheist, by definition.

How can you challenge that?
Can anyone else in the Forum challenge that?

Furthermore, how do you know that such poet represents Zeus by idols of metal or stone or wood, and has superstituous beliefs around those statues?
You are making judgements beforehand.

 

[Dizerner]

You are correct about montheism, but not about idolatry.

Idolatry is not just about physical representations but any false attribution of God.

Even Scripture in both OT and NT says there are demons behind the physical statues.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You are correct about montheism, but not about idolatry.

Idolatry is not just about physical representations but any false attribution of God.

Even Scripture in both OT and NT says there are demons behind the physical statues.

Excellent. I agree.
I'm taking, @civic and @Dizerner, the discussion to a new thread.

 

[mikesw]

Being idols or not has nothing to do with the definition of monotheist or polytheist.
Whether you agree with such god or his commandments or not has nothing to do with the definition.
If the poet believes there is only one god, Zeus, he is a monotheist, by definition.

How can you challenge that?
Can anyone else in the Forum challenge that?

Furthermore, how do you know that such poet represents Zeus by idols of metal or stone or wood, and has superstituous beliefs around those statues?
You are making judgements beforehand.

It would be absurd for that poet to think there is only one god. Zeus or Jupiter is always viewed within a pantheon. It would be absurd for the poet to worship without the precession to the temple. It would be like someone having a car without gasoline for them not to be in the precession. Plus, the whole scenario is a false god and then is a practice of no-theism instead of monotheism. That no-theism is really what all the other religions are since they do not have the true God. However, their practices can be called polytheism as a description of their perception of reality.

 

[Runningman]

It would be absurd for that poet to think there is only one god. Zeus or Jupiter is always viewed within a pantheon. It would be absurd for the poet to worship without the precession to the temple. It would be like someone having a car without gasoline for them not to be in the precession. Plus, the whole scenario is a false god and then is a practice of no-theism instead of monotheism. That no-theism is really what all the other religions are since they do not have the true God. However, their practices can be called polytheism as a description of their perception of reality.

Which is why the Father is the only true God. I find this post bizarre. God is not a pantheon, but a trinity version of god is.

 

[mikesw]

Which is why the Father is the only true God. I find this post bizarre. God is not a pantheon, but a trinity version of god is.

I see. your problem is that you cannot understand the Trinity because the only models you have are three separate gods. You cannot comprehend the expression of Christ's divinity in the Godhead because you cannot shift to the model of unity in the Godhead as the sole true God. It certainly is unique how God has revealed himself in a fashion distinct from some multiple gods or pantheon concept. It should not be a surprise that God is different from anything modeled before around the world. Interestingly no other option but the Trinity makes sense.

 

[synergy]

I see. your problem is that you cannot understand the Trinity because the only models you have are three separate gods. You cannot comprehend the expression of Christ's divinity in the Godhead because you cannot shift to the model of unity in the Godhead as the sole true God. It certainly is unique how God has revealed himself in a fashion distinct from some multiple gods or pantheon concept. It should not be a surprise that God is different from anything modeled before around the world. Interestingly no other option but the Trinity makes sense.

Correct. God is One by Nature and Three by Persons. Unitarians have no understanding of the Person/Nature distinction.

 

[mikesw]

Correct. God is One by Nature and Three by Persons. Unitarians have no understanding of the Person/Nature distinction.

I'm not making any argument against anything in what I now mention. I get the sense that Satan promoted certain ideas about false gods in anticipation of tripping people up on the true nature of God. The limitation on this would regard the degree to which Satan knew the true aspects of God. I do like what I just heard about the incident with the legion of demons in that poor man. They recognized Jesus from a distance.

 

[Runningman]

I see. your problem is that you cannot understand the Trinity because the only models you have are three separate gods. You cannot comprehend the expression of Christ's divinity in the Godhead because you cannot shift to the model of unity in the Godhead as the sole true God. It certainly is unique how God has revealed himself in a fashion distinct from some multiple gods or pantheon concept. It should not be a surprise that God is different from anything modeled before around the world. Interestingly no other option but the Trinity makes sense.

This is just trinitarian propaganda. The Bible says the Father is the only true God. Why not just go with that instead of creating a story?

 

[mikesw]

This is just trinitarian propaganda. The Bible says the Father is the only true God. Why not just go with that instead of creating a story?

It is amazing how that Trinitarian view was evident in the second century, as Peterlag shared.
I would rather understand the true God in his Triune sense as the scriptures reveal. We saw in John 2:19-21 that Jesus raised himself from the dead but also God did and the Holy Spirit. We cannot escape that equality and ambiguity by denying the deity of Christ.

 

[Runningman]

It is amazing how that Trinitarian view was evident in the second century, as Peterlag shared.
I would rather understand the true God in his Triune sense as the scriptures reveal. We saw in John 2:19-21 that Jesus raised himself from the dead but also God did and the Holy Spirit. We cannot escape that equality and ambiguity by denying the deity of Christ.

In the early church, there was Christianity and other cults like Trinitarianism, but The Way Jesus taught is not what you're selling. John 2:19-22 proves Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead.

 

[synergy]

In the early church, there was Christianity and other cults like Trinitarianism, but The Way Jesus taught is not what you're selling. John 2:19-22 proves Jesus didn't raise himself from the dead.

All those verses together prove that all 3 Persons in the Trinity took part in Jesus' Resurrection. That proves the Trinity. What you're doing is denying John 2:19 and John 10:18. Those verse alone clearly prove that Unitarianism is a cult.

 

[Runningman]

All those verses together prove that all 3 Persons in the Trinity took part in Jesus' Resurrection. That proves the Trinity. What you're doing is denying John 2:19 and John 10:18. Those verse alone clearly prove that Unitarianism is a cult.

Unitarianism is strictly monotheistic and does not contain the germ of polytheism like your beliefs do. The earliest example of Unitarianism in the Bible is the entire Old Testament. The only explicit statements about who God is refers to Him being a singular being or person or whichever word you want to use for convenience. What is clear, though, is that God is never described as a three person being. Not only do we have the entire Old Testament that says God is just one person, but we have thousands of years of Jewish literature that states that God is not a trinity.

 

[synergy]

Unitarianism is strictly monotheistic and does not contain the germ of polytheism like your beliefs do. The earliest example of Unitarianism in the Bible is the entire Old Testament. The only explicit statements about who God is refers to Him being a singular being or person or whichever word you want to use for convenience. What is clear, though, is that God is never described as a three person being. Not only do we have the entire Old Testament that says God is just one person, but we have thousands of years of Jewish literature that states that God is not a trinity.

I told you that you're denying John 2:19 and John 10:18 and what do you do? You say nothing about them and you just carry on your merry way as if those verses don't even exist. Learn some debating skills and then we can talk. Ok?

 

[mikesw]

Unitarianism is strictly monotheistic and does not contain the germ of polytheism like your beliefs do. The earliest example of Unitarianism in the Bible is the entire Old Testament. The only explicit statements about who God is refers to Him being a singular being or person or whichever word you want to use for convenience. What is clear, though, is that God is never described as a three person being. Not only do we have the entire Old Testament that says God is just one person, but we have thousands of years of Jewish literature that states that God is not a trinity.

why polytheism? what is another god? who has ever claimed there was another god except your misconception of the Triune nature of the only God --Yhwh. We have Jewish writings where the contended with the passages that reflect God speaking to the Angel of God who also is God.Once you start addressing those maybe you can start buttressing your heretical view better.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Unitarianism is strictly monotheistic and does not contain the germ of polytheism like your beliefs do. The earliest example of Unitarianism in the Bible is the entire Old Testament. The only explicit statements about who God is refers to Him being a singular being or person or whichever word you want to use for convenience. What is clear, though, is that God is never described as a three person being. Not only do we have the entire Old Testament that says God is just one person, but we have thousands of years of Jewish literature that states that God is not a trinity.

Hi Runningman

I think it would be interesting to know whether any respected Trinitarian theologian would support the idea that Jews believed in the Trinity at any time in their history. I suppose none of them would.
If that's the case, our Trinitarian friends should start by acknowledging that the Trinity was unknown by those who listened the preaching of Jesus Christ and his disciples.

It would be much more proper from our Trinitarian friends of the Forum to claim the Trinity to have been revealed by the Holy Spirit to the disciples of the disciples (what we could call the second generation of Christian leaders), at some point during the second century AD.

The Catholic Church would have no problem with accepting that, since it believes in progressive revelation to the Church.
The ones struggling are those who claim to uphold Sola Scriptura, without accepting that their theology has a post-biblical basis.

 

[mikesw]

Hi Runningman

I think it would be interesting to know whether any respected Trinitarian theologian would support the idea that Jews believed in the Trinity at any time in their history. I suppose none of them would.
If that's the case, our Trinitarian friends should start by acknowledging that the Trinity was unknown by those who listened the preaching of Jesus Christ and his disciples.

It would be much more proper from our Trinitarian friends of the Forum to claim the Trinity to have been revealed by the Holy Spirit to the disciples of the disciples (what we could call the second generation of Christian leaders), at some point during the second century AD.

The Catholic Church would have no problem with accepting that, since it believes in progressive revelation to the Church.
The ones struggling are those who claim to uphold Sola Scriptura, without accepting that their theology has a post-biblical basis.

The general history of Israel had been rather dismal. Christ Jesus was sent to give those who follow him stability in their faith. So it would not have made sense to give fuller revelation of God to them. But they do have the record of the Angel of the Lord also being Yahweh.
Pancho Frijoles does not watch what I write but share this with him.
The Jewish writings show them contending about the way God and the Angel of the Lord both were Yahweh. The issue actually was resolved with recognition of the divinity of Christ. But for the Unitarian, these ideas cannot be discussed and the controversy of the Angel of the Lord just left a mystery. They just ascribe this to polytheism.