Satan will be loosed to test the resurrected ones faith. They will have an opportunity to learn and apply Gods will, many will learn about Jesus( from OT days)-- Satan gets thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed forever after that is done.
The Thousand Year Reign
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
- Start date
Thanks for sharing a Jehovah Witness view. That way I know for sure it is a view to reject. I do not even see that anywhere in scripture, which makes it all the worse.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
It is not directly mentioned. However, it is theologically implied in allegorical sense of creation itself.
Consider... the 2nd the 3rd day of creation and how the flood timing played out.
Quoting AI....
"On the second day of creation, according to the Genesis narrative, God separated the waters from the sky, creating a space called the expanse. On the third day, He brought forth dry land from the waters, gathered them into seas, and caused vegetation to appear on the earth. "
I believe there is a good chance that Peter recognized the significance of a "thousand years". Not saying I'm right about it relative to creation. It is interesting at times to me. I've long thought about it relative to the revelation we have today.
@Keiw1
"By Jesus' side during that reign are his anointed bride= 144,000 bought from the Earth( Rev 14:3) To rule as kings and priests on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)-- The great crowd remain on Earth forever( Matt 5:5,, Psalm 37:11,29,, Prov 2:21-22-- bible truth. " Corruption!
Later...
What a confused mess of events, that can only come from a cult void of ,the Spirit of God.
"By Jesus' side during that reign are his anointed bride= 144,000 bought from the Earth( Rev 14:3) To rule as kings and priests on thrones( Rev 1:6, Rev 20:6)-- The great crowd remain on Earth forever( Matt 5:5,, Psalm 37:11,29,, Prov 2:21-22--
Later...
So many NT doctrine are within these nine verses. We shall briefly consider of them so taht we can get an overall understanding of revelation twenty.
Revelation is a book that is not written in chronological order, but a book given to us with each chapter giving us an bird's eye view from Christ's death and ascension to his second coming and related events during this period and the end of the world as we know it, with an usher in of the New heavens and New earth.
Revelation twenty is no exception, but an perfect example of what we have just said.
Before I start, one can read what Augustine taught, and he learned from another person whose works are not with us today, yet mentioned by Augustine. I find it amazing that some taught back then (almost verbatim) shortly after the apostles what we do today ~ we have so much more to guide us than they had. We are living in the mist of the prophecy, they had not even begin to see what we can see with our eyes, which helps (at least I would think so) to see the true understanding of Revelation 20:1-8.
It is evident from Augustine’s writings that he drew significantly on the work of a theologian named Tyconius, whose writings are lost apart from the use made of them by Augustine. Tyconius, a fourth-century African Donatist theologian, wrote a work on biblical interpretation entitled The Book of Rules, which set out seven rules that exerted a powerful influence on subsequent biblical interpretation. I would have love to have read this, but we can only imagine by reading Augustine as he learned from Tyconius. One can google and read a verse by verse of Augustine's understanding of Revelation 20:1-8.
The question we have at hand here is, "does the one thousand year reign spoken of in Revelation chapter 20, mean that Christ is going to come and reign on this earth after the Tribulation?" This is a theory that is taught by a great many theologians, and churches, but the question is, can it be verified by the scriptures themselves? And the answer is, No. The whole idea is contradictory to God's word when we consider all of the pertinent scriptures that are used to justify it. Nowhere is this doctrine explicitly mentioned in scripture, but some say it is implied. However, in reality, it is based solely on the misunderstanding or private interpretation of a few select verses. God does not say He will rapture the church before any tribulation. In fact, the Lord says just the opposite as He explicitly states that the church will not be taken off the earth until the end of the world. He says the rapture or saints gathering together in the air (1st Thessalonians 4:17) is at the last day and the last trumpet. These ideas of a pre-tribulation rapture and an earthly reign of Christ are built upon an unsound foundation that will not stand the test of Holy Scripture.
It's important in this introduction of Revelation 20 that this should be made perfectly clear up front exactly what GOD says (and does not say) about the return of the Lord. Understanding this, we can better grasp what has been the speculations, assumptions, and suppositions by men, and what are solid biblical facts. Let's begin by taking a quick look at a few of the verses that may have a direct bearing on this issue.
Matthew 24:29-31~"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: and then shall appear the sign of the son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven unto the other."
God says "immediately" after the tribulation, the trumpet will sound and it's the gathering together of the elect. Both context and content illustrate that this is so. In other words, the elect believers are still on this earth after the great tribulation period because they haven't been raptured. Indeed, what would be the point? Likewise it says, be ye also ready for the Lord's return, because for those who aren't (verse 51) there is judgment, and weeping and gnashing of teeth. God is talking to the church and He is telling them to be ready for this event. Note, the Disciples ask Jesus when will be the sign of His coming again and the end of the world. It is then that He tells them these things. i.e., "this is the signs of His coming and the end of the world". When the fig tree is in leaf, then He is even at the doors! These are the signs.
In Premillennial theology, (which I was in for a brief period, when I first came to Christ over fifty years ago) there seem to be three implicit three comings of Christ. This cannot be denied, for as one was at His birth, one is at the (supposed) pretribulation rapture of the church, and the third is here when He comes to gather the Elect at the judgment of the last day, at the end of the world. The obvious problem is that there is nothing in scripture to justify that there are three comings of Christ!
This idea is not biblically validated. We read of the coming of Christ to confirm (Daniel 9:27; make strong) the Covenant at His birth, after which He ascended to heaven to reign over His Kingdom as was prophesied. And then there is the return of Christ to both rapture the church and judge the wicked at the completion of that New Covenant period. This second advent is what Matthew chapter 24 is talking about, not the third. Christ doesn't come for the church before the great tribulation. When He returns on the clouds of glory it is the second and last coming. Likewise, because we read that this trumpet sounds (Matthew 24:31) and it is obviously the end of the world (which even most all Pretribulation theorists agree) then this has to also be the time of Christ gathering the elect together in the air. Because God says that this rapture occurs at "The Last Trumpet" and He is not the author of confusion. To say anything less about the trumpet seems to distort the very scripture record. It's just a matter of humbly receiving what is written. Consider these next two passages:
1st Thessalonians 4:16~"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the Trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
This notation of being "caught up together" in the air is what we call the rapture. The word rapture is derived from a Latin term meaning to be "caught away" and is merely used by Christians to avoid repetitive and awkward quoting of the entire verse (1 Thess. 4:16) each time we reference this glorious event it describes. So let me be clear that when I use the word rapture, I am simply speaking about nothing more and nothing less than what the scripture itself defines as believers being caught up together with Christ in the air (1st Thess. 4:16).
Comparing scripture with scripture, and this verse with the verses of Matthew 24:29-31, it becomes easy (despite premil objections) to see when the rapture takes place. In fact, you'd have to be trying very hard not to see it. The trumpet will sound, and the gathering of the chosen or elect that are left on earth into the heavens commences. Those who have died in the Lord are with Christ, and believers on earth are caught up in the air to be with Christ and His messengers. The unbelievers are left there on earth to watch this event and then are judged. I believe that this is as Matthew 24 declares that one will be taken and the other left. It specifically states that it was at "the trumpet's sound" immediately after the great tribulation period. Not Before! Moreover:
1st Corinthians 15:51~"Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at The Last Trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
Here we see the rapture spoken of again. And note "carefully" that God declares that it takes place at the sound of the last trumpet. Not the next to the last, but specifically the last! That means that there are no other trumpets after this trumpet. It is the last trumpet and it is the rapture. And so we see (if we believe God's Word) that the trumpet sounding in Matthew 24 cannot possibly be "after" this one, because this rapture is at the Last trumpet. PreTribulation Rapture theology teaches that the trumpet in Matthew 24 takes place after this last trumpet spoken of 1st Corinthians. They are effectively denying God's word by privately interpreting 1st Corinthians to "Not Be" the last Trumpet. The question becomes, why would anyone professing faithfulness to scripture do this? And the only answer I can come up with is that they know that if Matthew chapter 24's trumpet isn't after the rapture trumpet of 1st Corinthians, then their whole theory of the rapture before the tribulation is totally bankrupt, as Matthew 24 declares it is immediately after the tribulation of those days. Yet they go to great lengths trying to rationalize away the last trumpet of 1st Corinthians. One fellow asked me, "..has God really said this is the last Trumpet?" Yes, this sounds an awful lot like the question of the serpent in the garden, doesn't it? "..hath God said ye shall not eat of the tree?"
Yes, He did. He says the end is at the last trumpet as well. If it is true that God's word says this, then the Matthew 24 Trumpet Christ speaks about must also be the last trumpet, because they themselves admit that this verse is in reference to the end of the world. That means Matthew, 1st Thessalonians, and 1st Corinthians, are all talking about the same time period. Judgment Day and the Rapture at the very same Last Trumpet.
Later.....
I would love to have a friendly discussion on Revelation, but that would be difficult (even on my part haha).
Some agreement can be found in saying Revelation is not fully sequential. The primary sequence is the reflection of the visions as he perceived them. There also is a restart of earlier events in Revelation at around chapter 11 or 14 or something. That continues through chapter 19. Then chapter 20:1-7 follows all that but after the 1000s years we have 20:8-15, which is a parenthetical mention of a later time. Then back to the earlier time, Rev 21 happens sequentially after 20:1-7 and I think Rev 22:6-21 has the concluding remarks.
I just will note that I have not seen any passage that suggests the end of the earth. But be happy with what you have thought is happening in the text.
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@mikesw
Could I ask what school of thought are you considered to be from? I'm a Amillennial Idealist, which probably was evident in my last post, or, at least should have been by most who understands the four leading positions. I briefly was taught the Premill position when I first came to Christ back in the early seventies.
IN Revelation 7 we have the sealing of the 144,000 with as John said was a numbers that no man could numbers, the 144,000 speaking of the totality of the elect from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
In the well known chapter 13.
I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of this chapter. As you know, evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals.
Psalms 73:22
It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. I also believe that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likness (image) of the beast.
Revelation 13:1-2~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.
Revelation 17:12~"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."
This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Christ. (which we shall see in Revelation twenty) At this time when Satan is loosed (the wound healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.
Revelation 13:3~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."
Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel (Spiritually speaking, the church is finally completed) are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.
Revelation 13:4-5~"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."
Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.
Psalms 68:20-22~"He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death. But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"
Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.
And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.
Revelation 13:6-7~"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.
Revelation 13:8-9~"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God service.
Revelation 13:10-11~"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.
The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.
Revelation 13:12-14~"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.
Revelation 13:15-16~" And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"
The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying they are in fellowship with false rellgion against the truth, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan and his gospel of works. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.
Revelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
The number of "a" man void of the Spirit of God, (not sealed by God) making him a lawless man (man of sin) or man of lawlessness. The buying and selling signify the moving freely within the false churches of the last days church, and no one can work there except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan. The mark God tells us is 666, the number of man void of the Spirit of God.
It is easy to see with such verses as:
What is two third of a whole? 66% or, 666! A third of a whole is a small remnant, in comparison to the whole. Not that difficult, if we trust God's word for our answers.
So that's basically my brief overview of all those verses of Revelation 13~very much connected with Revelation 20 which is to be expected.
Greetings Mike,
Could I ask what school of thought are you considered to be from? I'm a Amillennial Idealist, which probably was evident in my last post, or, at least should have been by most who understands the four leading positions. I briefly was taught the Premill position when I first came to Christ back in the early seventies.
Once the seals are open in Revelation six, we have the time events starting from the church in Jerusalem all the way to the end of the world!
IN Revelation 7 we have the sealing of the 144,000 with as John said was a numbers that no man could numbers, the 144,000 speaking of the totality of the elect from all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
In the well known chapter 13.
I'll give a quick brief overview of "my" understanding of this chapter. As you know, evil beasts are images in Scripture that often signify the carnal (fleshly), beastly, dangerous nature of man. It is sometimes used to signify evil Kingdoms or wicked carnal individuals.
Psalms 73:22
- "So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee."
It is my position that beasts are often used in Scripture to signify the animalistic flesh driven nature of man. Without Christ, man is as a creature or beast without conscience or wisdom, and like a beast his driving force is to get whatever it desires, to tear, to devour, without consideration for law. It is often used to represent kingdoms or individuals as a token of those who live by the flesh (carnal nature) rather than the Spirit of God's law. I also believe that Revelation chapter 13 uses this imagery to paint a portrait of the carnal kingdom of Satan, as well as the false prophets whom he empowers to devour. The carnal, rebellious, disobedient man ruled by Satan is the likness (image) of the beast.
Revelation 13:1-2~"And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority."
Without going into too much detail, the sea often used in Scripture as a synonym for the deep, bottomless pit or abyss, the spiritual place where this evil spirit resides ready to be loosed upon man at any moment. The first beast is the body of the antichrist (his kingdom) that was wounded at Christ's death and resurrection. The heads in Scripture often signify authority, and the number 7 is the perfect number of completeness. Thus I believe that the 7 heads represent Satan's authority to rule as the prince of this world throughout time (7 mountains = 7 kingdoms). Horns in Scripture often signify the power of whatever is in view, as the horn that was broken in Daniel (meaning his power was broken). The number 10 signifies the fullness of whatever is in view. In this instance the 10 horns signify Satan's "Power" over men to rule for the fullness of this short period of time near the time of the end of the world. The fullness and rule of this period is also spoken of in Scripture as one hour. Thus these 10 horns rule (as kings) with the beast kingdom one hour. And their crowns again illustrate they reign with him. i.e., crowns are for kings.
Revelation 17:12~"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."
This also shows clearly that the first beast (with these 10 horns) spans the completeness (7) of time, and near the end of this time (the 1 hour of God's judgment) when the church becomes spiritually Babylon, these 10 kings will reign with him for this short period (little season KJV) after Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. The wound that was healed was the power of Satan to deceive the nations, which was before taken away (when Satan was bound) by Christ. (which we shall see in Revelation twenty) At this time when Satan is loosed (the wound healed), he again goes out to gather together and deceive the nations to bring them up against the camp of the saints.
Revelation 13:3~"And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast."
Christ, of course, wounded him by the cross, and also looses the beast, or heals that wound, after all Israel (Spiritually speaking, the church is finally completed) are sealed. Satan is loosed so that He might bring judgment upon the unfaithful (spiritual harlot) church.
Revelation 13:4-5~"And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."
Under the authority of Satan, these kings rule and go to make war against the camp of the saints (the church), it being judged of God for its abominations, after which is the return of Christ on the clouds of glory. Christ wounds and Christ heals that wound, to the glory of God.
Psalms 68:20-22~"He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death. But God shall wound the head of his enemies, and the hairy scalp of such an one as goeth on still in his trespasses. The Lord said, I will bring again from Bashan, I will bring my people again from the depths of the sea:"
Compare Revelation 17:8,11 of, "the beast that was, and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit." In other words, this is the Beast, this is the power of Satan as he brought Israel into apostasy, as Christ defeated him, and as he again ascends out of the bottomless pit to attack the church. Just as a ravenous beast would attack the sheep in a fold, so Satan comes as an adversary of the house of God. He was because He ruled before Christ bound him. He is not because Christ bound Him. And He ascends out of the Pit because Christ looses him.
And the ability to bring God's external church down was bound or restrained by Christ's binding Satan over 2000 years ago, but his loosing after the millennial reign allows this judgment, even as Israel was judged. Thus the Gentile congregation is no better than the Jewish one. Apostasy knows no bounds. The blasphemies that he speaks is his false teachings and contradictions forsaking the Word of God. These are the great things he speaks that deceive and which Revelation 13 talks about.
Revelation 13:6-7~"And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Same as Revelation 20 when Satan is loosed from the Pit to make war with the saints.
Revelation 13:8-9~"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear."
All of those who aren't sealed of God in Israel worship the carnal, Pseudo or Antichrist instead of God. He has deceived them so that they serve him, thinking they do God service.
Revelation 13:10-11~"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon."
John sees another vision of a beast coming up from the earth. The earth signifies they come up from the world, and this beast has two horns like a lamb, but speaks as a dragon. This beast represents the false prophets. They come looking like they have the power of the messenger of light (horns signify power, the number two signifies the truthful witness of the church), but what gives them away is that they speak as the Dragon, which is Satan. In other words, they appear as a messenger of light, but their gospel is false and of the adversary Satan.
The first beast, who the false prophets cause men to worship, represents the antichrist, or more to the point Satan's substitute kingdom. It is the body of false worshipers. Revelation is written this way because just as the true church is represented by the body of Christ, and the Old Testament congregation by the body of Moses, the false congregation is seen as the body of the anti (substitute) or false Christ. The false prophets are those who cause the unfaithful to depart from Scripture and worship Him. All Israel who are not sealed unto the day of redemption.
Revelation 13:12-14~"And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live."
The deadly wound was given the beast who is to be worshiped at the cross. Christ dealt the adversary a death wound so that he could not deceive the nations (and the church could be built), but at this time Satan is loosed from his prison. This is spoken of as the deadly wound being healed, and the reason is so that the unfaithful people of the world might again serve him (as judgment). The false prophets, the second beast, deceive the unfaithful people and seduce them into serving this antichrist kingdom by means of false miracles, signs and wonders. Remember, Christ was bound for the specific purpose of the nations not being deceived. Now that He is loosed, his false prophets again deceive the nations, in order to usher in the Lord's second coming.
Revelation 13:15-16~" And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:"
The false prophets give life to the likeness of the Antichrist by propagating their false teachings, which leads to them overcoming the church and causing all the faithful therein (the two witnesses) to be killed. Those remaining as a judgment of God are said to be marked on their hand (not literally as some suppose, but spiritually) signifying they are in fellowship with false rellgion against the truth, and in their forehead, signifying their mind is sold out to Satan and his gospel of works. Just as a cow is branded or marked to signify ownership, so this signifies these unsealed are slaves to the antichrist.
Revelation 13:17-18~"And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."
The number of "a" man void of the Spirit of God, (not sealed by God) making him a lawless man (man of sin) or man of lawlessness. The buying and selling signify the moving freely within the false churches of the last days church, and no one can work there except those who have been spiritually marked slaves of Satan. The mark God tells us is 666, the number of man void of the Spirit of God.
It is easy to see with such verses as:
Zechariah 13:7-9
“Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.”What is two third of a whole? 66% or, 666! A third of a whole is a small remnant, in comparison to the whole. Not that difficult, if we trust God's word for our answers.
So that's basically my brief overview of all those verses of Revelation 13~very much connected with Revelation 20 which is to be expected.
praise_yeshua
Active Member
So you're not part of the bride of Christ?
2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
That "Bride" is much larger than you want to limit it to........
civic
Active Member
Both Peter and John in Revelation describe a New Heaven and New earth. This one is dissolved/destroyed by intense heat described by Peter.
I am fine with the concept of the first century destruction of the temple and the persecutions as a refiner's fire that can be identified as intense heat. These are apocalyptic images that can touch upon physical realities. Also, the new heaven and new earth can reflect a change of the system of worship but also of new creation in Christ, as applicable to believers. And I shared the new Jerusalem reflects the church (or the place for the church) that was virtually existing as per Gal 4:26.
The other "confusing" details of Rev 21-22 can be explained -- hopefully to reasonable satisfaction rather than being seen as too many thin threads.
Edited: I should add that there is no apparent need for the earth or heaven to be obliterated just to replace those in a "physical" way after various things of Revelation happen. Sure we could imagine that with the problems of the physical earth that we could point out today, but that is not the topic of Revelation.
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@praise_yeshsa
Jehovah Witness are void of the Spirit of God, period. I'm NOT allow to bid them God's speed.
2nd John 1:7
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
What does this have to do with what I said to @Keiw1 ~ who seems to be a Jehovah Witnesses, of which I'm not part of the church he is part of ~ not today, not tomorrow, never shall be.
Before God, I truly desire it to be, but, the false cult of JW's deny the most essential doctrine of the Christian faith...Jesus Christ was God manifest in human flesh, the only God man shall ever see with his eyes, for His father is a Spirit, alwasy has been, always will be, that can never change, no not ever.
Jehovah Witness are void of the Spirit of God, period. I'm NOT allow to bid them God's speed.
2nd John 1:7
“For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”
I cut out much of your text just to keep some context with less of what can be read above.
I have not seen much of the idealist view before. I started with post-mil as if a Christian eschatology. I have rejected full preterism because it glossed over the resurrection element and Rev 20:7-10. I had pretty much settled on Rev 1-19 being done, but trusted that others could explain it. In recent years I have hear Bruce Gore on YT who seems to explain those details quite well even if there are a few rough spots. He shows the connection of the beasts well with Daniel, so Revelation indeed acts as an unsealing of what was left sealed in Daniel.
I went through a bible series discussion on Revelation recently in a group. I was not too deep in studying it but was bothered by people missing obvious context and points in it. As you might have inferred, I'm not studied enough on Revelation to recall details sufficiently but could comment on points as they come up. My focus has been on Rev 20 in view of my expectation about Rev 1-19. I wanted to figure out exactly what was meant and what to look forward to.
My present view is that Revelation primarily explains the eschatology of Israel and thus restates what the OT (plus NT additions) would happen with the fall of Jerusalem and the Temple. However, Rev 20 provides a little more insight beyond what Daniel 12 provides.
The 144,000 reflects the tribes of Israel in a figurative sense. By figurative, I mean that the selection of twelve tribes has changed by excluding Dan and inserting Levi. So the salvation of Jews represents the first fruits. Gentiles are not listed in the tally of tribes in vv 5-8. The nations are treated as subsequent enjoyers of salvation.
Edited in:
Effectively, this passage shows the priority of Jews in fulfillment of prophecy to Israel and of its redemption. More broadly in Revelation, the details of the transition from the Mosaic era to the Christ era has been presented within a turbulent transition and upheaval, which accords with Dan 12:1.
I do not find Rev 20:7-10 to reflect Rev 13 since Christians are shown to be killed in the early chapters -- and thus are the beheaded of Rev 20:4-6. But in Rev 20:7-10, the nations are only able to reach the point of encircling the camp of the Christians before God brings forth judgment on them. Plus, Rev 20 mostly concerns the era after the 1000s years interval.
Edited in:
I hope there are clues you can discover regarding possible response to more details you shared of your view on Rev 13. I was slow to respond so far but can respond on more details soon, I think.
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e v e
Active Member
if anyone reads the enclopedia judaica (jewish encyclopedia), the editor, himself jewish, states, that the jews are not the hebrews of the 'OT' ie the israelites... and I add those preaching 'judaism' were esaus (as a type)... they followed their mystery babylon egyptian sect, egypt, which was always a pharisee belief system, even before the time of moses. True, many poor souls (jacob) sadly listened to their beliefs and rituals, since they knew no better (and today nothing is changed.) This is called lawlessness. For when not following Christ, that is lawlessness is it not? The laws in opposition have always been the law of Sin and Death (satan and this reality - in which we are imprisoned) and the law of the Spirit of Life (Christ and His eden paradise - and to Him and to His Eden we are asked to return to).
all of those souls of eden, hebrew souls, even in the time of Moses, followed IEUE. There was never a division of old and new testament, that division was created by Marcion (do go check!) and adopted by popes (=followers of babylonian fish religion, the same egypt and mystery babylon beliefs). The saints of the 'old' testament followed ieue and as such, Christ. There was no new religion formed, nor new covenant. The vatican, as mystery babylon proxy simply folded back all the babylonian ritual over Christianity as a facade. Same since after the fall. The law of judaism has nothing to do with Christ...true, for His covenant is Return to Eden Paradise, and has been such ever since the fall. And that is the meaning of 'leaving Egypt' and finding the promised land (Eden) of which the saints such as moses played out aspects of as asked by God.
all of those souls of eden, hebrew souls, even in the time of Moses, followed IEUE. There was never a division of old and new testament, that division was created by Marcion (do go check!) and adopted by popes (=followers of babylonian fish religion, the same egypt and mystery babylon beliefs). The saints of the 'old' testament followed ieue and as such, Christ. There was no new religion formed, nor new covenant. The vatican, as mystery babylon proxy simply folded back all the babylonian ritual over Christianity as a facade. Same since after the fall. The law of judaism has nothing to do with Christ...true, for His covenant is Return to Eden Paradise, and has been such ever since the fall. And that is the meaning of 'leaving Egypt' and finding the promised land (Eden) of which the saints such as moses played out aspects of as asked by God.
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e v e
Active Member
Nations as a term almost invariably refers to the Foreign to God Demon Nations in Mystery Babylon in the other reality which which Adam's help made eden (also in the other reality) to fall. As a term Nations is negative, and not connected to God's people. Thus, finding passages in Greek or Hebrew using that term, the corruptions occurring from this one theme alone are astoundingly bad.
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praise_yeshua
Active Member
Sorry. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I'm sincerely sorry for the mistake. Please forgive me. You're right.
@mikesw
I'll be short with this ~but before starting, if I can asked a favor from you it would be this: I'm old, getting close to 80, and do not see as well as I once did, that being said, it is harder for me to read colors other than black on white, or bold red on white, those two are easy for me to read. Any consideration would receive a heartily THANK YOU.
Amill-Idealist is not new by no means as you could see in the above post I did. Approaching highly symbolical words used by Daniel and John would be a blinking red light to make sure we find our understanding with clearer scriptures in the word of God that would allow us to give a interpretation flowing (from one scripture to another) in perfect agreement with God's overall testimony of the truth.
Jesus actually begin to open up Daniel's prophecy to us with his last teachings to his disciples just before he went to the cross, in the Olivet Discourse recorded for us in Matthew 24,25, Mark 13; and Luke 21, and Paul enlarged on this in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12; John in 1st John 2:18 and in Revelation ~ all of these scriptures are connected and should be studied together. The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, and Christ, "is the same family " (refer to in the scriptures as 'this generation") as the man of sin in 2nd Thessalonians; and the antichrist by John in 1st John 2:18 and the beast in Revelation ~ the abomination of desolation was NOT the Romans armies that brought desolations to the nation of Israel, but is that which God will make desolate because of the many abominations brought into the churches by the man of sin ~ and the antichrist ideology in the world outside of religion, in this world system of its hatred of God, his word and his people.
I'll post again next time from Revelation 20.
Greetings Mike,
I'll be short with this ~but before starting, if I can asked a favor from you it would be this: I'm old, getting close to 80, and do not see as well as I once did, that being said, it is harder for me to read colors other than black on white, or bold red on white, those two are easy for me to read. Any consideration would receive a heartily THANK YOU.
Amill-Idealist is not new by no means as you could see in the above post I did. Approaching highly symbolical words used by Daniel and John would be a blinking red light to make sure we find our understanding with clearer scriptures in the word of God that would allow us to give a interpretation flowing (from one scripture to another) in perfect agreement with God's overall testimony of the truth.
Jesus actually begin to open up Daniel's prophecy to us with his last teachings to his disciples just before he went to the cross, in the Olivet Discourse recorded for us in Matthew 24,25, Mark 13; and Luke 21, and Paul enlarged on this in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12; John in 1st John 2:18 and in Revelation ~ all of these scriptures are connected and should be studied together. The Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, and Christ, "is the same family " (refer to in the scriptures as 'this generation") as the man of sin in 2nd Thessalonians; and the antichrist by John in 1st John 2:18 and the beast in Revelation ~ the abomination of desolation was NOT the Romans armies that brought desolations to the nation of Israel, but is that which God will make desolate because of the many abominations brought into the churches by the man of sin ~ and the antichrist ideology in the world outside of religion, in this world system of its hatred of God, his word and his people.
I'll post again next time from Revelation 20.
@praise_yeshua
Brother, forgiven before you even ask, it is very easy to miss another person point, I've been guilty myself.
I see no connection to your two posit with the subject under consideration, not even close ~ so, can I ask you to what purpose you are saying what you did? Are you also part of the Jehovah Witnesses? That will answer my question for me, if you will answer me.
e v e
Active Member
No i am not a jehova witness and never have been.
they believe God created this earth, that eden was on this earth, that paradise will be on this earth no?
none of that's right... oh and that God created this fleshbody which is Death. they also follow the corrupt scroll = kjv ..
i dont belong to any denomination.
my understanding of a thousand years
(soon) is that it starts after the rapture , soon
and after eden paradise is restored by the 144k sons ruling with christ..
during trib most of christianity s left behind,
jacob.. and this because of his lawlessness...
which is modern christianity
and its anti christ view
caused by the corrupt scroll = kjv.
during tribulation Christ and the 144k
will visit left behind jacob and comfort him
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